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Old 07-14-2007, 02:41 PM   #1
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I know you come from the Netherlands, and you've previously said your school was in Groningen (perhaps you have a short memory). And you can't go much norther or easter in the Netherlands (except perhaps West Friesland) than Groningen.
Actually, West Friesland is part of North Holland, way to the West of Groningen (and to Friesland, hence its name). Ostfriesland is East of Groningen, in Germany.

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I didn't know you studied in Arnhem and Utrecht though, so that might have coloured your Dutch. Most Dutch that speak English (not British: Britons may be exclusively Welsh or Gaelic speakers) have learned it the British way; those that speak with an American accent speak generic 'American'.
My guess is when I speak American I speak "generic American" - but in reality what comes out is close to what I hear around me, that's quite instinctive with me and applies to Dutch, English, German and Spanish, at least.

But note that I never speak about "British" as a language or accent - I refer exclusively to "British English" as opposed to "American English".

   
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Old 07-15-2007, 01:42 PM   #2
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Marjolein:

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way to the West of Groningen
The most easterly of the Dutch Frisian Islands is about as far east as Groningen, but I only found that out from the 1:200 000 map after I had written that it might be further east.

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I refer exclusively to "British English" as opposed to "American English"
British English only makes sense if you're talking about written English. The same goes for American English, but there is slightly less diversity in the spoken language in the USA.

   
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:00 PM   #3
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The most easterly of the Dutch Frisian Islands is about as far east as Groningen, but I only found that out from the 1:200 000 map after I had written that it might be further east.
Nope, the eastern islands are Groninger islands! And Texel belongs to North Holland.

But the Wadden islands (the name for all of them together, distributed over three provinces) have nothing at all to do with where West Friesland is - so why are you bringing that up?!?

Have a look at this map.

   
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:40 PM   #4
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Marjolein:

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the eastern islands are Groninger islands!
I shouldn't have mentioned 'Friesland', which the name of Dutch province, but the West Frisian Islands, of which the most easterly of which is Rottumeroog; the West Frisian Islands are only separated by the outflow of the Ems from the East Frisian Islands (now German). Rottumeroog is almost exactly at the same longitude as Groningen, possibly a fraction of a degree east of the town.

   
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Old 07-16-2007, 04:47 AM   #5
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I shouldn't have mentioned 'Friesland', which the name of Dutch province, but the West Frisian Islands, of which the most easterly of which is Rottumeroog; the West Frisian Islands are only separated by the outflow of the Ems from the East Frisian Islands (now German). Rottumeroog is almost exactly at the same longitude as Groningen, possibly a fraction of a degree east of the town.
"West Frisian Islands" is an odd name - as I said, the Wadden islands are distributed over three provinces, North Holland, Friesland and Groningen. Rottumeroog belongs to Groningen.

But again, what does this have to do with "West Friesland" which is (once again) part of North Holland and thus way to the West of Groningen, even farther to the West than Friesland is?

"West Friesian islands" has absolutely nothing to do with "West Friesland".

   
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Old 07-16-2007, 08:15 AM   #6
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Marjolein:

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"West Frisian Islands" is an odd name
It's the correct geographical term for the Friesian Islands west of the Ems, to differentiate them from the German Friesian Islands, which are called East Frisian Islands. I don't know when they received different names, but I presume they were named collectively as 'Frisian' had an influence on English. 'Friesland' was just a mistake of mine: don't be too hard on me!

I don't know the name 'Wadden', but 'das Wattenmeer' (or simply 'Wat') is the German for the whole area of sea that exposes expanses of mud at low tide.

   
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Old 07-16-2007, 09:20 AM   #7
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It's the correct geographical term for the Friesian Islands west of the Ems, to differentiate them from the German Friesian Islands, which are called East Frisian Islands.
If it's "correct" - which I doubt - it's at ;least jhighly misleading - there' s nothing "Friesian" about the Wadden islands except those that are part of the province of Friesland.

The are called Wadden islands because they sit on the border between the Wadden Sea and the North Sea.

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I don't know when they received different names, but I presume they were named collectively as 'Frisian' had an influence on English.
But they weren't called that here! So it can't have had an "influence on English" either. I have no idea where that misleading name comes from, but it's certainly not from us!

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'Friesland' was just a mistake of mine: don't be too hard on me!
You referred to "West Friesland" (which is part of North Holland), not "Friesland" (which is a province).

And you still haven't explained what the islands (by any name), or their geographical locations, or their political locations, have to do with West Friesland or with my "North Eastern" North American accent.

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I don't know the name 'Wadden', but 'das Wattenmeer' (or simply 'Wat') is the German for the whole area of sea that exposes expanses of mud at low tide.
Wat in German, Wad in Dutch. Hence the name Wadden islands, which, strictly speaking refers to all of them, the Dutch Wadden islands as well as the German Wadden islands. Only a minority of those are, or ever were, "Friesian" in any sense (geographically, or linguistically) except maybe well before the middle ages when Friesian was spoken (maybe) on a larger proportion of them.

Just forget the term "Friesian Islands" unless you are referring specifically to the 4 Wadden islands that are part of the province of Friesland.

   
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Old 07-16-2007, 12:04 PM   #8
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Marjolein:

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Just forget the term "Friesian Islands"
It's rather difficult to do that (it's Frisian [sic] in English: just ignore anything I spelled incorrectly), since Frisian Islands is how they're named in English. The whole archipelego is called 'Frisian', and comprises the West Frisian Islands, the East Frisian Islands, and the North Frisian Islands. The islands once formed Frisia; I don't know how much Frisian is spoken today, but it's still spoken in on the North Frisian Islands (according to a wireless program once introduced by the late Lala Anderson—of 'Lili Marlene' fame—, who came from Sylt).

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my "North Eastern" North American accent
You just said 'north-eastern', without specifying where; you might have meant Northumberland, for example, . . . or Groningen.

   
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:32 PM   #9
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It's rather difficult to do that (it's Frisian [sic] in English: just ignore anything I spelled incorrectly)
"Friesian" is also spelled correctly, and the spelling I happen to prefer.

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Originally Posted by Michael Rowley View Post
since Frisian Islands is how they're named in English. The whole archipelego is called 'Frisian', and comprises the West Frisian Islands, the East Frisian Islands, and the North Frisian Islands.
Well, unfortunate name - but don't blame it on us!

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The islands once formed Frisia;
That's wrong. Friesians once lived along the North sea coast from Germany till Belgium or even northern France, and that included the current provinces of Groningen, Friesland, North Holland, (most of) South Holland and Zeeland (or at least broad coastal regions of those provinces) in the current Netherlands; the area also included Ostfriesland in current Germany. Most of the area they inhabited was mainland, not islands. So "Frisia" was much, much more than the Wadden islands, and not all of those islands were inhabited by Friesians.

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I don't know how much Frisian is spoken today, but it's still spoken in on the North Frisian Islands (according to a wireless program once introduced by the late Lala Anderson—of 'Lili Marlene' fame—, who came from Sylt).
That's a bit optimistic: "North Frisian" is dying out fast - not all linguists agree it's a branch of the Friesian language either. There are some other small pockets of Friesian spoken in Germany as well, equally fast dying out - this Wikipedia map still only shows one such pocket although there used to be more (two or three in the same area East of Groningen). The only area where the language is alive and well (very well) is in the province Friesland, where it's an official language (next to Dutch); note that on only one of the Friesian Wadden islands Friesian is spoken (see the map - which is not quite acccurate since in some areas of Friesland Friesian is not a native language: they should not be colored in). More here but note that "West Friesian" (official language in Friesland) is not spoken in West Friesland (where a specific North Hollands dialect is spoken).

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Originally Posted by Michael Rowley View Post
You just said 'north-eastern', without specifying where; you might have meant Northumberland, for example, . . . or Groningen.
No, I might not have meant that - the subject of this thread must have escaped you (but not me). And I replied to KT's original post, who had the same result from the quiz.

Of course you can interpret any sentence you like any way you like if taken out of context - but a forum thread, with a subject, does provide a very clear context, especially a threaded forum thread where the post something is in reply to provides even more context.

But what have the Wadden islands or West Friesland to do with anything? I'm still totally confused why you brought those up, even if I had meant "North eastern Dutch" (which I didn't - and don't speak).

   
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:56 PM   #10
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Marjolein:

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a forum thread, with a subject, does provide a very clear context
Yes Miss. And how many times must I write out: 'I must not make frivolous comments'?

   
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