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Old 10-21-2006, 12:06 PM   #1
Michael Rowley
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Default Embedding problem in MS Word

I've encountered an embedding problem in MS Word 11 (2003).

I produce a document, in which the typefaces are 'Minion Pro' and 'Myriad', and this document is distributed in PDF; that causes no problems. But for a sound reason, I have to give someone a Word version, and he hasn't Minion or Myriad. Embedding the various original fonts doesn't work in Word, because the files are all OTF (why not, Microsoft?), but embedding the fonts as TTF files does; at least up to a point, for whereas Minion Pro regular (a text face) is embedded, Minion Pro Semibold Subheading is not.

Possibly, Word can only embed a limited number of fonts of any one kind and is fazed by subtleties such as text and subheading fonts; that is the only explanation that I can think of, but perhaps you can think of something different.

   
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Old 10-21-2006, 12:32 PM   #2
PeterArnel
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why not send him the fonts and tell him where to put them
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Old 10-21-2006, 01:41 PM   #3
Michael Rowley
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Peter:

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why not send him the fonts and tell him where to put them
I don't think that would be ethical; besides, he's the General Secretary of an organization with quite enough money to buy the fonts.

In previous years I have prepared a separate file from the one I use to make the PDF from, but it's not 100% safe, because I have to substitute for the ligatures, old-style figures, and small capitals, because they're not in any font the Gen. Secretary's got. If he were a little bit more interested in using something other than TNR & Arial, there wouldn't be a problem.

   
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Old 10-22-2006, 07:59 AM   #4
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Is it a licensing issue? Seems unlikely if one works and the other doesn't though.
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Old 10-22-2006, 08:59 AM   #5
Michael Rowley
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Lois:

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Is it a licensing issue?
No, the Minion OTF fonts are all licensed for viewing, printing, and editing; the Minion TTF fonts are marked as 'viewing and printing' only, as they have been converted by TypeTool 2 (it automatically raises the bar). The Word file opens (correctly) 'read only', as it contains the embedded fonts.

Minion Pro (regular) and Minion Pro Italic are embedded, but Minion Pro Medium Subheading, which I have used for the principal subheadings, is simply replaced by Times New Roman Bold. That wouldn't matter very much, as Times and Minion are rather similar, if the subheadings in question contained certain characters that are in the Minion Pro Medium Subhead but not in Times New Roman.

The Minion Pro family has 32 members without the condensed versions, and Word clearly has something against some of them; but I don't know which. Word doesn't seem to object to embedding more than four families members of a family, for it embeds both Myriad Bold and Myriad Black.

   
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Old 10-23-2006, 02:15 AM   #6
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Michael: does this page have a clue for you?

http://www.myfonts.com/support/onepage.php?hc=10#a8135
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Old 10-23-2006, 08:41 AM   #7
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Lois:

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does this page have a clue for you?
It certainly gives me a clue, though it also says that the fault occurred only in Word 8; I'm getting it in Word 2003. Of course, I have no notion as to what Word actually looks for, or if embedding works the same way in other programs; it all seems wrapped in mystery.

Thank you for the clue!

   
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Old 10-23-2006, 11:54 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Rowley View Post
The Minion Pro family has 32 members without the condensed versions, and Word clearly has something against some of them; but I don't know which. Word doesn't seem to object to embedding more than four families members of a family, for it embeds both Myriad Bold and Myriad Black.
This is because the Windows system only sees four fonts as members of a "family" (usually roman, italic, bold, bold italic; note how Arial Narrow is a different "family" than Arial). Adobe Type 1 typefaces with numerous fonts are usually set up as different families on the pc, whereas on the mac they appear as one family (i.e. Helvetica). If you have been converting fonts using a software set them up as members of different "families" and they might work better together.

Word doesn't do embedding in pdfs, Acrobat does that.

The reason your client doesn't have Myriad is because this is an MM font that comes with the Acrobat package and is used to emulate the display of missing fonts.

>>Possibly, Word can only embed a limited number of fonts of any one kind and is fazed by subtleties such as text and subheading fonts ...>>

Not true at all, most likely has to do with font permissions.
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Old 10-23-2006, 01:22 PM   #9
Michael Rowley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roaryg View Post
This is because the Windows system only sees four fonts as members of a "family" (usually roman, italic, bold, bold italic; note how Arial Narrow is a different "family" than Arial). Adobe Type 1 typefaces with numerous fonts are usually set up as different families on the pc, whereas on the mac they appear as one family (i.e. Helvetica). If you have been converting fonts using a software set them up as members of different "families" and they might work better together.

Word doesn't do embedding in pdfs, Acrobat does that.

The reason your client doesn't have Myriad is because this is an MM font that comes with the Acrobat package and is used to emulate the display of missing fonts.

>>Possibly, Word can only embed a limited number of fonts of any one kind and is fazed by subtleties such as text and subheading fonts ...>>

Not true at all, most likely has to do with font permissions.
I'm afraid all your assumptions do not solve the mystery. In the first place, although my suggesting that the various fonts in the Minion Pro Opticals set belong to one 'family', Adobe is quite well aware that many applications (not just Word) only recognize at the most four members, and has taken steps to ensure that the names of fonts belonging to a family of more than four members are sufficiently well distinguished. Word does in fact list only one member for Minion Pro (the four text fonts), but gives all the others separately.

I did not suggest that Word had anything to do with embedding in Acrobat: I made it clear that Acrobat embeds the fonts without difficulty, and, of course, doesn't distinguish between OTF and TTF files.

I haven't a 'client' for this particular document: I prepared the PDF file for an organization I belong to, and the extra Word file is wanted by the man running the organization's office. I haven't got Myriad as part of Acrobat because I already had Myriad Pro when I installed the present version of Acrobat; anyway, hasn't Acrobat got a different MM font for emulation purposes?

Embedding restrictions don't come into it: all the TTF fonts have the same restriction, viz viewing & printing only.

The MyFonts support page comes nearest to an explanation, but it describes behaviour exhibited only by Word 8, and I'm using Word 11. Perhaps Word 12 will get round the problem, and perhaps even recognize that OTF fonts can be embedded.

   
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Old 10-23-2006, 03:40 PM   #10
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One thing ... oh, alright, one of the *several* things ... that's unclear:

How did the (unembeddable) OTFs become (embeddable) TTFs?

   
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