DTP


 
Lively discussions on the graphic arts and publishing — in print or on the web


Go Back   Desktop Publishing Forum > General Discussions > On Language & Literature

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-09-2006, 11:51 AM   #1
Michael Rowley
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ipswich (the one in England)
Posts: 5,105
Default Convinced vs persuaded

One thing makes my blood boil: using 'convinced' when 'persuaded' is what is meant. The crime of using 'convinced' with the construction appropriate to 'persuaded' might be an old American custom (though I think it's fairly recent), but, of course, it's crossed the Atlantic and is now frequently committed in England.

   
__________________
Michael
Michael Rowley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2006, 12:57 PM   #2
Franca
Staff
 
Franca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Monterey Bay area, CA
Posts: 2,203
Default

"Usage Note: According to a traditional rule, one persuades someone to act but convinces someone of the truth of a statement or proposition: By convincing me that no good could come of staying, he persuaded me to leave. If the distinction is accepted, then convince should not be used with an infinitive: He persuaded (not convinced) me to go. In a 1981 survey, 61 percent of the Usage Panel rejected the use of convince with an infinitive. But the tide of sentiment against the construction appears to be turning. In a 1996 survey 74 percent accepted it in the sentence I tried to convince him to chip in a few dollars, but he refused. Even in passive constructions, a majority of the Panel accepted convince with an infinitive. Fifty-two percent accepted the sentence After listening to the teacher's report, the committee was convinced to go ahead with the new reading program. Persuade, on the other hand, is perfectly acceptable when used with an infinitive or a that clause in both active and passive constructions. An overwheming majority of Panelists in the 1996 survey accepted the following sentences: After a long discussion with her lawyer, she was persuaded to drop the lawsuit. The President persuaded his advisors that military action was necessary. Thus, it seems likely that advocates of the traditional rule governing persuade and convince will find fewer and fewer allies in their camp."
-- The Free Dictionary

I fear the tide has well and truly turned towards synonymization of the two words....

But your post prompted some research which led me to an interesting forum (also vBulletin):

WordReference Forums

I haven't had a chance to explore yet to see if it's any good, but it's certainly an interesting idea.

   
__________________
..
..Franca

..
Franca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2006, 01:16 PM   #3
ktinkel
Founding Sysop
 
ktinkel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: In Connecticut, on the Housatonic River near its mouth at Long Island Sound.
Posts: 11,189
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Rowley View Post
One thing makes my blood boil: using 'convinced' when 'persuaded' is what is meant. The crime of using 'convinced' with the construction appropriate to 'persuaded' might be an old American custom (though I think it's fairly recent), but, of course, it's crossed the Atlantic and is now frequently committed in England.
Oh, Michael — you’re always blaming things on America. So far as I know, this repellent usage straddles the Atlantic (and goes beyond, I bet; maybe Ann can tell us).

Even Burchfield’s new Fowler’s (can’t seem to lay hands on my trusty old edition) has given up on this, saying mildly: “It is a classic example of a new construction that is acceptable or at least unexceptionable to some and repugnant to others.”

But in a world in which most speakers (and many writers) cannot distinguish between imply and infer and reticent and reluctant, persuade and convince come pretty far down the list of important battles.

(But just between you and me, hearing convince where persuade should be makes me cringe too.)

   
__________________
[SIZE=2][COLOR=LemonChiffon]::[/COLOR][/SIZE]
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
ktinkel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2006, 01:25 PM   #4
annc
Sysop
 
annc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Subtropical Queensland, Australia, between the mountains and the Coral Sea
Posts: 4,434
Default

I haven't noticed it here, but then I haven't heard the reticent/reluctant swap either.

Maybe we really are backward.

   
__________________
annc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2006, 01:52 PM   #5
Franca
Staff
 
Franca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Monterey Bay area, CA
Posts: 2,203
Default

Quote:
I haven't noticed it here, but then I haven't heard the reticent/reluctant swap either.
I have only ever heard one person use "reticent" in place of "reluctant" and she's not representative - she's a friend of mine who confuses many words, and I haven't the heart to correct her. She's dyslexic and had a hard time in school even though she's quite intelligent.

   
__________________
..
..Franca

..
Franca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2006, 01:58 PM   #6
Franca
Staff
 
Franca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Monterey Bay area, CA
Posts: 2,203
Default

Quote:
But in a world in which most speakers (and many writers) cannot distinguish between imply and infer and reticent and reluctant, persuade and convince come pretty far down the list of important battles.
The confusion of imply and infer are much more bothersome to me than that of persuade and convince, because the former pair have completely opposite meanings. Like Ann, I have not been exposed to reticent/reluctant confusion on any kind of a mass movement scale, but that would be more bothersome as well - those two words have entirely different meanings AFAIC.

   
__________________
..
..Franca

..
Franca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2006, 02:00 PM   #7
ktinkel
Founding Sysop
 
ktinkel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: In Connecticut, on the Housatonic River near its mouth at Long Island Sound.
Posts: 11,189
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by annc View Post
Maybe we really are backward.
In this case, lucky you!

   
__________________
[SIZE=2][COLOR=LemonChiffon]::[/COLOR][/SIZE]
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
ktinkel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2006, 02:02 PM   #8
ktinkel
Founding Sysop
 
ktinkel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: In Connecticut, on the Housatonic River near its mouth at Long Island Sound.
Posts: 11,189
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franca View Post
I have only ever heard one person use "reticent" in place of "reluctant" and she's not representative - she's a friend of mine who confuses many words, and I haven't the heart to correct her. She's dyslexic and had a hard time in school even though she's quite intelligent.
President Bush did it a few weeks ago, in a prominent sound-byte moment — something like “I’ve never been reticent to go after terrorists,” something like that.

And then just the other day, someone on Morning Edition — maybe even Scott Simon, of whom I expect better — made that error.

Convince for persuade is too common even to note.

   
__________________
[SIZE=2][COLOR=LemonChiffon]::[/COLOR][/SIZE]
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
ktinkel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2006, 02:10 PM   #9
Franca
Staff
 
Franca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Monterey Bay area, CA
Posts: 2,203
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ktinkel View Post
President Bush did it a few weeks ago, in a prominent sound-byte moment — something like “I’ve never been reticent to go after terrorists,” something like that.
Well, he hardly counts. I'm frankly surprised when he uses any big words correctly. OK, that's harsh but I'm so tired of his fake "I'm just a regular guy" act. In no way is that true, not on any level that I can think of. Sigh.

Quote:
And then just the other day, someone on Morning Edition — maybe even Scott Simon, of whom I expect better — made that error.
Whereas that's inexcusable! Anyone on Morning Edition really should know better.

   
__________________
..
..Franca

..
Franca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2006, 03:21 PM   #10
Michael Rowley
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ipswich (the one in England)
Posts: 5,105
Default

Franca:

Quote:
I fear the tide has well and truly turned towards synonymization of the two words
I shouldn't mind so much people's confusing the different constructions, but persuade and convince are so different in their meaning. I can say, 'You've persuaded me that . . . against my better judgement', but if you had convinced me, then my judgement would no longer be the same.

   
__________________
Michael
Michael Rowley is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Contents copyright 2004–2014 Desktop Publishing Forum and its members.