DTP


 
Lively discussions on the graphic arts and publishing — in print or on the web


Go Back   Desktop Publishing Forum > General Discussions > Web Design

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-21-2007, 03:36 PM   #1
George
Member
 
George's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevdeforges View Post
Spending some time here, and this site really grows on me. My first impression was not positive (I guess the background description was too weak), but the deeper I went, the more it had an affect. It's beautiful -- in color, layout, graphics, photos; a true study in web design. I wasn't expecting this kind of content (although I don't really know what I thought I was going to find)-- but the design is wonderful. The site says it's optimized for 800 x 600 resolution, but I thought it was much better at 1024 x 768. I'm going to study this site for awhile, I think. I've never experienced a site like it.

George
George is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2007, 12:06 PM   #2
iamback
Member
 
iamback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Amsterdam, NL
Posts: 4,894
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
Spending some time here, and this site really grows on me. My first impression was not positive (I guess the background description was too weak), but the deeper I went, the more it had an affect. It's beautiful -- in color, layout, graphics, photos; a true study in web design.
Quite inaccessible, too. I guess they don't care about people who can speak but not see. Study? I'd say they - or their web designers - forgot to study. Try turning off images and then navigating the site.

They want to impose standard on the French language - but don't accept (or know?) there are such things as web standards? No guesses here - the site doesn't validate. They don't even know what language they're writing (no DOCTYPE declaration!).

I'll stop here. It's a nice study in how not to build a website for the general public.

   
__________________
Marjolein Katsma
Look through my eyes on Cultural Surfaces (soon!), My ArtFlakes shop and Flickr.
Occasionally I am also connecting online dots... and sometimes you can follow me on Marjolein's Travel Blog
iamback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2007, 01:29 PM   #3
George
Member
 
George's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamback View Post
I'll stop here. It's a nice study in how not to build a website for the general public.
Then, you found nothing good about it? Hmm--you know, in the Pieta, Mary is too young and her size is not proportionate, and there are a number of other technical problems. But I don't criticize Michelangelo. I just learn from him. I had noted the problems on the site, but there is a lot to learn from it. I won't mind degenerating to some of their other standards at all --if I can become that talented.

George
George is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2007, 01:45 PM   #4
dthomsen8
Member
 
dthomsen8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA 19130
Posts: 2,158
Default Defense of the French Language

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamback View Post
...
They want to impose standard on the French language - but don't accept (or know?) there are such things as web standards? No guesses here - the site doesn't validate. They don't even know what language they're writing (no DOCTYPE declaration!).

I'll stop here. It's a nice study in how not to build a website for the general public.
I don't know French, but even I can puzzle out their mission, the defense of the French language. Who defends English? Or German? Or, for that matter, Urdu or Chinese?

They could at least specify that their web site is in French. Naturally, there is no other language choice on this web site, if you don't know French, you are not educated enough for this site.
dthomsen8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2007, 02:16 PM   #5
George
Member
 
George's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
It's beautiful -- in color, layout, graphics, photos; a true study in web design…I've never experienced a site like it.
George
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamback View Post
I'll stop here. It's a nice study in how not to build a website for the general public.
Marjolein, perhaps, you would like to give some links on sites you’ve designed with superior color, layout, graphics, and photos – or some links in general with superior design in theses aspects. Please note specifics, like why the color is better, or what about the graphics is more artistic.

Or -- I noted just certain aspects of web design, but you responded to more technical matters. Are you saying that missing technical matters negates all other features??

George
George is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 01:32 AM   #6
iamback
Member
 
iamback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Amsterdam, NL
Posts: 4,894
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
Marjolein, perhaps, you would like to give some links on sites you’ve designed with superior color, layout, graphics, and photos – or some links in general with superior design in theses aspects. Please note specifics, like why the color is better, or what about the graphics is more artistic.
I do NOT look for "better color" or "artistic graphics" in the first place. I look for valid code, usability and accessibility. Their site fails on two of those at first glance, so I didn't even look for usability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
Or -- I noted just certain aspects of web design, but you responded to more technical matters. Are you saying that missing technical matters negates all other features??
The graphical design is just icing on the cake. Surely blind French users should be able to use the site? As it's designed, they'd have a hard time of it, if they can use it at all. Color may be nice, but should never be used as the only distinguishing characteristic between items - people who are color blind may not be able to see the difference - so I don't look at pretty colors as a good design feature per se - it should be usable independent of that (or in spite of that).

A site that fails on such basic things as valid code and accessibility I would never consider an example for anything at all except as how not to do things. Seriously, turn off images in your browser and see if you can even use the site.

   
__________________
Marjolein Katsma
Look through my eyes on Cultural Surfaces (soon!), My ArtFlakes shop and Flickr.
Occasionally I am also connecting online dots... and sometimes you can follow me on Marjolein's Travel Blog
iamback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 05:48 AM   #7
George
Member
 
George's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamback View Post
A site that fails on such basic things as valid code and accessibility I would never consider an example for anything at all except as how not to do things.
Actually, I can't agree with you, that a site that fails in things such as accessibility cannot still be used as an example for use of color, graphics, photos, layout. But I don't mind just having my own ways to some extent.

George
George is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 11:24 AM   #8
iamback
Member
 
iamback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Amsterdam, NL
Posts: 4,894
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
Actually, I can't agree with you, that a site that fails in things such as accessibility cannot still be used as an example for use of color, graphics, photos, layout.
But that reduces the "design" to a thing to be looked at only - and web design is not just about things to be looked at, it's about things to be used, and found, and read. That's why this site is not a good example of web design. A website is not a brochure, or a piece of paper.

   
__________________
Marjolein Katsma
Look through my eyes on Cultural Surfaces (soon!), My ArtFlakes shop and Flickr.
Occasionally I am also connecting online dots... and sometimes you can follow me on Marjolein's Travel Blog
iamback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 12:33 PM   #9
George
Member
 
George's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamback View Post
But that reduces the "design" to a thing to be looked at only - and web design is not just about things to be looked at, it's about things to be used, and found, and read. That's why this site is not a good example of web design. A website is not a brochure, or a piece of paper.
Are you saying that if the color, layout, graphics, and photos of this web site are studied as an example of good design, then what is learned from it will prevent a designer from using proper techniques on usability or basic coding?? For myself, I can separate the two, and then use another site example for the other features. However, what is good about this site is, indeed, very good. It inspires me, and it will change how I do things eventually, unless I simply lack the natural talent. What is good about the site will not cause me to adopt improper coding in other matters, as actually the visuals are not inconsistent with good coding, though it wasn’t used in various aspects. (But did this designer get the job, over a superior coder, because he/she knew what mattered most to the buyer?? Maybe, learning the visual techniques left no time for classes on code. For myself, I’m sure the coding will seem an easier process.)

I could go on, regarding why I think what is good on the site is fascinating…but it seems that as you find how I am wrong in my posting in the forum, that actually you change the essence of what I say, until I wonder what you are really getting at… There’s a psychology at least to this website's design, which creates a unique experience in visiting it, which I could question and discuss and, perhaps, find intriguing, but not in the context of meandering interpretation of my intended meaning with altered objectives. Maybe, another time.

(BTW, for anyone interested, when I said the site looked better in 1024 x 768, rather than 800 x 600 as optimized, I forgot I had my font default changed in my browser. At the preset default size, the site does look very nice at 800 x 600).

George

Last edited by George; 08-23-2007 at 12:49 PM.
George is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 09:53 PM   #10
iamback
Member
 
iamback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Amsterdam, NL
Posts: 4,894
Default Visual appeal can support usability, not replace it

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
Are you saying that if the color, layout, graphics, and photos of this web site are studied as an example of good design, then what is learned from it will prevent a designer from using proper techniques on usability or basic coding??
No, that's not what I said at all. I said just a pretty design does not make a website you can actually use. A pretty design does not have to get in the way at all, but just plain and simple usability and navigability have to come first; it's quite possible to support that with a pretty design.

The site in question here fails miserably on that count. It's an example of design for a pretty look only, without any regard for actual use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
For myself, I can separate the two, and then use another site example for the other features.
Sure you can separate them, but design without basic usability for a website is not web design. It's graphical design only. There are way too many websites that demonstrate this - you just happened to pick a "good" example of how good graphical design isn't good web design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
However, what is good about this site is, indeed, very good. It inspires me, and it will change how I do things eventually, unless I simply lack the natural talent.
There's nothing wrong with being inspired by the graphical design of a website. Just remember that graphical design is not the same thing as web design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
(But did this designer get the job, over a superior coder, because he/she knew what mattered most to the buyer?? Maybe, learning the visual techniques left no time for classes on code. For myself, I’m sure the coding will seem an easier process.)
And it will be a lot easier if you start with good, structural code. Even if you have a visual presentation in mind. That is also half the work of designing with accessibility in mind. And doing that is again also half the work of search engine optimization (search engine bots are effectively blind users).

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
I could go on, regarding why I think what is good on the site is fascinating…but it seems that as you find how I am wrong in my posting in the forum, that actually you change the essence of what I say, until I wonder what you are really getting at… There’s a psychology at least to this website's design, which creates a unique experience in visiting it, which I could question and discuss and, perhaps, find intriguing, but not in the context of meandering interpretation of my intended meaning with altered objectives. Maybe, another time.
You are wrong only in saying it's a good example of web design - it's good graphical design only.

You are right there is psychology involved in web design - but much of that has to do with usability and interaction. Knowing what makes links easy to find an what builds an expectation for what is to be found at the other side of those links, for instance. Such aspects are not part of graphical design per se, although graphical design can certainly support it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
(BTW, for anyone interested, when I said the site looked better in 1024 x 768, rather than 800 x 600 as optimized, I forgot I had my font default changed in my browser. At the preset default size, the site does look very nice at 800 x 600).
I am not impressed by any "optimization" for any particular size of a browser window - quite the contrary. Any site that proclaims it's been optimized for a particular browser size has already dropped one of the many balls a web designer needs to juggle.

Give me a good fluid design that even works on a mobile phone or PDA, and I'll be impressed. But the "example" site does work with my browser set at 800px wide (my standard, though my windows are usually a good deal higher than 600px, and only partly to compensate for the number of toolbars I have up there).

   
__________________
Marjolein Katsma
Look through my eyes on Cultural Surfaces (soon!), My ArtFlakes shop and Flickr.
Occasionally I am also connecting online dots... and sometimes you can follow me on Marjolein's Travel Blog
iamback is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Visual Thesaurus terrie The Corner Pub 6 06-15-2006 12:50 PM
Usability/Accessibility Study CarlSeiler Web Design 1 01-24-2006 11:33 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Contents copyright 2004–2014 Desktop Publishing Forum and its members.