Printer problems in all Small Business Office 2003

[ferdy]

This is probably rather mundane for most of you clued up people, but I am desperate to try to get some help with this problem: no one on the Microsoft discusions forums seems to believe me, are sceptical or rather dismissive, and HP customer services say it is not their problem & contact MS. In the MS discussion forums, however, I have seen recently several instances of other correspondents, users of all Ofice programs & XP referring to this same problem with other makes of printer - Epson, Lexmark. I run a small secretarial business, and this problem is seriously damaging my reputation with my clients.
My set up is - I have Small Business Edition Office 2003 SP2 XP on a recently constructed bespoke computer, which is fantastic in all respects. Bags of memory etc. I also have a HP officejet 5510 office jet printer. In addition I have an old HP 810C, which has done faithful service for me for nearly 5 years connected to my previous computer which ran on Windows 98 with Office 2000. Everything was printed perfectly using the 810C and the old computer, but my business outgrew them and I purchased the new compuer and printer. My problem is that when I try to print from my new printer, the colours are dull, muddy and just no WYSIWYG. Cartridges, self test, latest printer drivers, monitor etc - the whole shooting match is bob onn but when I try to print what looks exactly as my client wants when I show them the final proof document on the TFT, it comes out looking awful. I have have run a test using my old printer on the new set up and the result is the same. I have been told by my computer supplier & HP that this is a bug and that MS is supposed to be fixing it. The supplier told me that they have a client who runs a printing business who had this problem so badly that he had to revert to 2000. Does anyone out there have any suggestions or even have they heard of this? Any help gratefully received.

[PeterArnel]

It does seem strange - if as u say the print test is ok.
Have u tried printing out from a programme which isnt MS - say a pdf and seen what that looks like???
Peter

[ktinkel]

… I have Small Business Edition Office 2003 SP2 XP on a recently constructed bespoke computer, which is fantastic in all respects. Bags of memory etc. I also have a HP officejet 5510 office jet printer. In addition I have an old HP 810C, which has done faithful service for me for nearly 5 years connected to my previous computer which ran on Windows 98 with Office 2000. …

My problem is that when I try to print from my new printer, the colours are dull, muddy and just no WYSIWYG. Cartridges, self test, latest printer drivers, monitor etc - the whole shooting match is bob onn but when I try to print what looks exactly as my client wants when I show them the final proof document on the TFT, it comes out looking awful. I have have run a test using my old printer on the new set up and the result is the same. I have been told by my computer supplier & HP that this is a bug and that MS is supposed to be fixing it. The supplier told me that they have a client who runs a printing business who had this problem so badly that he had to revert to 2000. Does anyone out there have any suggestions or even have they heard of this? Any help gratefully received.Ouch. That sounds nasty. I haven’t a clue, but I hope one of our printer mavens can help.

Meanwhile, welcome to the forum!

[terrie]

Not sure what's going and I run W2K so...

What do you have set for your monitor for color management--right click anywhere empty on the desktop, choose Properties > Settings tab > Advanced > Color Management tab?

The problem may lie there...

Terrie

[Steve Rindsberg]

So that we can start with a known set of values, hop over here and download the calibration image (there's a link to the original TIFF file on the page)

http://www.rdpslides.com/pptfaq/FAQ00448.htm

Pop it into PowerPoint (which happily ignores any system color calibration) and see what it looks like vs what it prints like.

Naturally the printout and the image on screen won't look identical but they shouldn't be that wildly off. If they are, have a look at your printer driver settings. I can't tell you what to look for, as I don't have that printer, but be on the lookout for things like gamma, color correction/management and so on.

I'd start by turning anything that smells of color management OFF. In the printer driver, in your video driver, and anyplace else you can hunt it down.

Try printing again.

Report back in the morning.

[ferdy]

Yes Peter - I have just tried a .pdf and the effect is the same - if you didnt know that the colour was wrong, you would just think that it was too dark but it is readable but it is 'dull'. When, however, I produce in MS - not only is it dull, but reds are brown, and lblue looks like the blue that surrounds the this box. All the other colours are 'thin'.

[ferdy]

Thanks for your concern Kathleen and thanks for the welcome!

[ferdy]

Hi Terrie
Current Monitor - plug and play
sRGB Space Profile.
As a matter of interest - what should the settings for Utility Manager be.........she said grasping at straws!
ferdy

[ferdy]

OK Steve -the printout.........
1 on the test it looks almost 3D to me; on the print out it is grey and white - flat.
2.the print out doesnt go to black at all - there is still a sort of transparency til behind the #5 altho' it is nearly black
3. On the print I can see boxes in gradients of grey startng at very light grey right through until there is even a faint grey box round the 5. I can see a number 20 next to the 20 in the same grey as behind the # 2 and# 25
4 Red is tan; green is leaf green; blue is verging on lilac; pale blue is turquoise; pink is cerise; yellow is the same colour as Bart Simpson yellow. Then it goes thru the scale white etc okish but there is a very striking contrast between the last three colours of grey and black
5 & 6 are fairly close.
I'm not too good on going into settings but I shall go for it as you suggest and see what happens.
thanx ferdy

[ferdy]

Hi Steve - well I think Ive tried everything - including something that turned my monitor view brown!
The funny thing is that I feel I am almost there - the look is as if there was a slight 'film' over the colours. The nearest thing I can describe it to is that if you left a newspaper on a sunny windowbottom, after a few days the colours would fade and go 'flat'.

[Michael Rowley]

Terrie:

choose Properties > Settings tab > Advanced > Color Management tab

That's easily done, but my PC then shows 'Default monitor profile: none'. I go to the 'Add', and find that I have a lot of choices, but none of them obviously suitable for my monitor (Iiyama Vision Master Pro 450). What should I choose?

I never print in colour, so perhaps the answer is immaterial, but I didn't know there's any connexion between what I see on the screen & what would be printed if I had a colour laser printer.

[PeterArnel]

Then if a pdf prints like that - why do they think the problem is a MS Office problem??

Peter

[Steve Rindsberg]

OK. The fact that my test image also prints badly knocks one possible variable out of the mix: that you were using CMYK graphics and the colors were getting whacked in the conversion to RGB (everything gets converted to RGB when it comes into Office).

Since the test image is RGB to begin with, that's not an issue with it.

In any case, I'd stick with that same image for further testing, since the colors in it are all known quantities.

[ferdy]

Peter I honestly dont know. I spent 3 days on and off the telephone with HP customer advisors or whatever they are called over two weeks trying to get some assistance out of them. Goodness knows what it cost in ink, paper and telephone. I spoke to 3 different guys - all of whom appeared to be reading from scripts and didnt have any original ideas to suggest, but one of them did send new cartridges which had no effect whatsoever. I repeatedly ran diagnostics and self-tests for them and emailed them over, but they would not budge that it was a Microsoft problem, and as I say, I have seen this problem referred to in the MS 'other users' assistance communities. They said it was SP2 and XP that were the problem.
I'm just grateful that someone is making suggestions that might help me!

[ferdy]

Hi Michael
I have
sRG Colour Space Profile set as my default (which is the profile that Windows chooses for me as the one which is the optimum)
I also have the choice of

HO5000ND.icm
HG5000NG.icm
is330.icm

My printer is an officejet not a laser although in these circumstances, I am not sure that this would have any bearing.
thanks
ferdy

[ferdy]

Thanks Steve - at least that eliminates one possibility.
:) ferdy

[Michael Rowley]

Ferdy:

the profile that Windows chooses for me as the one which is the optimum

Thanks. Windows must have chosen 'none' for me, but I have now set it at 'AdobeRGB': there's no difference that I can see.

[terrie]

ferdy: sRGB Space Profile.

Hmmm...not really a good idea as this is a working space, not a monitor space--trust me on this...

Generally, most monitors come with a basic monitor profile--usually on the cd that comes with the monitor--and one installs that in well...depends...on a Windows 2000 system: C:\winnt\system32\spool\drivers\color

I *think* that for WinXP it should be similar except that it would be C:\Windows\system\spool\drivers\color

Once you've put the monitor profile in that folder, then you can right-click the desktop > Properties > Settings tab > Advanced > Color Management tab > add and then navigate to the file

If the monitor did not come with a profile, you should be able to download it from the monitor maker's website.

>>As a matter of interest - what should the settings for Utility Manager be.........she said grasping at straws!

LOL!!! What "Utility Manager"??? For your HP? Unfortunately, my HP printer is an HP6MP b/w laser printer and my color printers are all Epson's so, I'm not sure I can help...if you want to tell me *exactly* what options are available within the Utility Manager, I'd be glad to try and sort it out--a screen shot(s) might be easiest...

Basically, all color management is, is a way of setting up known values for each device which can then be translated across devices--it's a dictionary really...

Each "space" defines the characteristics of the device--you have a monitor space, a working space and a printing space--each with different profiles but because you *have* profiles, the monitor space can be translated into the working space which can be translated into the printing space.

The problem you are having is that not only do you not have the spaces defined, you are using a working space as a monitor space and who knows what the printer space is. All these pieces speak a different language and you don't currently have a dictionary to translate what's being said...

Not that any of the above gives you a practical approach to solve your problem...sorry about that...

Let's start with:

1. Who made the new pc you bought?

2. Who made the monitor--I'll try and find you a monitor profile to use...

Terrie

[terrie]

>>michaelr: That's easily done, but my PC then shows 'Default monitor profile: none'. I go to the 'Add', and find that I have a lot of choices, but none of them obviously suitable for my monitor (Iiyama Vision Master Pro 450). What should I choose?

Go to the Iiyama site and find your specific model and you should be able to download a monitor profile...then copy (assuming it's not a zip file...if it is. unzip it first...it should have either an ".icc" or ".icm" extension) it to:

W2K: C:\winnt\system32\spool\drivers\color
WXP (I *think): C:\Windows\system32\spool\drivers\color

Then go to the "ADD" area and add this newly downloaded profile...


>>I never print in colour, so perhaps the answer is immaterial, but I didn't know there's any connexion between what I see on the screen & what would be printed if I had a colour laser printer.

If you print color, you'd want this connection and there can and should be one to get what you see on the screen on paper...

Terrie

[terrie]

>>Windows must have chosen 'none' for me, but I have now set it at 'AdobeRGB': there's no difference that I can see.

First...that's a working space (as I mentioned to ferdy) and not a monitor space...and as I said to ferdy...trust me on this...you DON'T want to set that as your monitor profile...

When using color management, a true monitor space (as in, the profile is really and truly for a monitor, not a working space like AdobeRGB) defines the characteristics--how color is defined--of the monitor, which is then translated/converted to the working space (like AdobeRGB in something like Photoshop for example which uses color mangement) which is many, many people use--"working" in this instance means a standard (common) definition of colors.

To be truly color managed, one should use a hardware monitor calibrator like the ColorVision Spyder to hardware calibrate or at least Adobe Gamma which comes with Photoshop and InDesign and I would assume Illustrator to characterize *your* own specific monitor as each monitor--even from the same manufacturer--is different

Basically, the translation/conversion from *your* monitor with its own personal quirks to the (common/standard) working space like AdobeRGB theoretically will allow someone with a different monitor (also calibrated/characterized) to see the same color that *you* see on *your* monitor. It's all done behind the scenes so that there *shouldn't* be a difference when viewing the image.

This working space can later be translated/converted when one prints to a printer/paper profile so that what you see on the screen is what you get when you print.

Terrie

[Michael Rowley]

Terrie:

This working space can later be translated/converted when one prints to a printer/paper profile so that what you see on the screen is what you get when you print.

I've now found the monitor profiles for my (old) Iiyama 19-in CRT, and I think I've selected the right one and installed it as the default.

Actually, I wouldn't expect what I can see on my monitor to appear the same when reproduced on paper: the latter produces in the viewer's eye only approximately the effect that the former produces, since it relies largely on subtractive colours. As well as that, the incident light is important and you may get metameric effects. The only way of judging a print is to have it looked at by someone with 'normal' colour vision—and I wouldn't take that for granted!

[Steve Rindsberg]

>>This working space can later be translated/converted when one prints to a printer/paper profile so that what you see on the screen is what you get when you print.

Not by Office. Blissfully unaware of this whole CM thing.

[Andrew B.]

Not by Office. Blissfully unaware of this whole CM thing.So fixing up a lookup table is out of the equation. Considering the all that she's tried, I wonder if Windows 2K is the next step.

[ferdy]

Thaks everyone but this is me bowing out. I am getting way out of my technical depth here for simply asking the question that is based a definite fact. I had Windows 98 with Office 2000 and all my print out was absolutely, definitely WYSIWIG I am a female therefore I am not colour blind and neither are many of my clients. Now that I am using Windows XP SP2 with Small Business Edition 2003 the print out is most certainly not WYSIWIG. I have tested this using the same printer that I have always used with my new computer. I have compared the two monitors next to each other and they both have exactly the same display with the same colours using a document that I produced for a client recently which was WYSWIG, using the same printer and Windows 99 and Office 2000. I suspected almost immediately that it was something to do with ICM and read and troubleshot for several weeks. I have been through the rigours of HP's customer services and they have washed their hands of the matter after having suggested that I change over to the colour profile to kodak_dc.icm and sending me two new cartridges, and then they said it as Microsoft's problem. I'll check out the monitor's manufacturer (gnr) and see if there is any joy there. Then I shall go out into the garden and eat worms. I guess I have to accept the fact that my business has to take the hit and wait for something else to come along. Thanks everyone :)

[terrie]

>>ferdy: Then I shall go out into the garden and eat worms. I guess I have to accept the fact that my business has to take the hit and wait for something else to come along. Thanks everyone :)

Ewww...at least put a bit of chocolate sauce on the worms...'-}}

I don't know anything about Office--I'm a WordPerfect user--but could you install Office 2000 on your new machine and see if that might do the trick since my guess is that it might be the SBE2003 causing the problem. It certainly could be Windows XP but since going back to W98 is probaby out of the question, Office lends itself to testing...

I'm sorry we couldn't be more help...

Terrie

[Steve Rindsberg]

You mentioned the various profiles you've tried; have you tried none - disable ICM altogether?

[ferdy]

Too late - I already ate them......................ugh
Of course you were all of help - any suggestions were gratefully received. :)

[ferdy]

I'll try that!

[Andrew B.]

I'll try that!After that, think about trying Windows 2000. Backgrading is a solution you said was shown to work for someone else.

[terrie]

>>ferdy: Too late - I already ate them......................ugh

ROFL!!! Protein...they were protein...'-}}

Terrie

[Michael Rowley]

Terrie:

W2K: C:\winnt\system32\spool\drivers\color
WXP (I *think): C:\Windows\system\spool\drivers\color

Actually, in Windows XP the folder is in the same place as in Windows 2000.

[terrie]

>>michaelr: Actually, in Windows XP the folder is in the same place as in Windows 2000.

Thanks for noticing that...it was a typo on my part...I've fixed it...

Terrie