RGB color matching problem

[ktinkel]

I am really a vector person and have a wary relationship with Photoshop. But I really do need to figure out why Illustrator and Photoshop have such different ways with RGB color.

I had a small jpeg as a template for type and color. When I sample the colors in Photoshop I get one set of RGB values (and they seem to resemble the original). When I sample within Illustrator (or with the Mac color thingie or the eyedropper in Color Schemer, all of which pretty much agree), I get other, much darker colors.

I solved the problem by eyeballing the colors, and probably got close enough for web work. But what I would like to know is why the Illustrator and Photoshop colors do not match.

To my knowledge, I have not set any color management in either program, but trying to compare settings in the two apps is frustrating, so who knows.

Of course I could assemble these little logos in Photoshop, but I really prefer to set type in Illustrator, and then I can retain the characters as font rather than bitmaps. Makes it much easier to create variations later.

I would appreciate any bright ideas on how to go about getting these two sibling programs to have the same notion of color!

Thanks.

[terrie]

>>kt: To my knowledge, I have not set any color management in either program, but trying to compare settings in the two apps is frustrating, so who knows.

That'll do it...or not in this case...basically, you've got each app doing its own thing with color with no way to translate to common language...

Calibrating your monitor--even using Adobe Gamma rather than a hardware calibrator like ColorVision's Spyder (http://www.colorvision.com/profis/profis_view.jsp?id=101) --should help matters...

This of course assumes that Illo would use the monitor profile...I don't know anything about Illo so I'm not sure...

Also, deciding what working space to use--I use BruceRGB but Adobe1998 is used most often these days--and embedding that working space in files would help...

With those 2 pieces--used in both programs--you would create an environment where you (theoretically) should see the same color displayed in both programs.

I'm hoping Cristen will pop in because I know she's done a lot of work with Illo and she may be able to advise you better...

Terrie

PS...reading Fraser/Murphy/Bunting's Real World Color Management (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0321267222/qid=1116191859/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-0992398-6327845?v=glance&s=books) might help too...

[annc]

Of course I could assemble these little logos in Photoshop, but I really prefer to set type in Illustrator, and then I can retain the characters as font rather than bitmaps. Makes it much easier to create variations later.Photoshop has retained fonts as vectors since version 6. It keeps them on layers, and only flattens them if you want to save as any file format other than Photoshop.

[Shane Stanley]

To my knowledge, I have not set any color management in either program, but trying to compare settings in the two apps is frustrating, so who knows.

In Creative Suite 2, you can set your color management settings for all the apps in one place, Bridge. Now, there are times when having them all the same is not what you want, but I have a feeling this is not one of them.

Shane

[ktinkel]

In Creative Suite 2, you can set your color management settings for all the apps in one place, Bridge. Now, there are times when having them all the same is not what you want, but I have a feeling this is not one of them.This is all RGB stuff — that I sure would like to have in sync.

I’ve been hemming and hawing over CS 2 (and Tiger). Suppose I should jump in.

[Cristen Gillespie]

You may need to upgrade PS and AI. I'm not sure. Make sure in PS that all the files have the same profile embedded. Apple RGB, Adobe RGB, whatever you like. That way all the numbers should mean the same thing in RGB mode.

Try that first, but you may have to go beyond that. In CS2 there is a way to exchange swatches palettes between applications. With that, so long as you are using the same flavor of RGB, you shouldn't have any more problems. The numbers will be the same.

Watch out for Tiger. I'm still holding off installing it. I don't know if there are problems with CS2 and Tiger--and it's no doubt too early to know, but read on Macintouch. Apparently there are still several problems with Tiger so you want to make sure you don't have programs that will break under Tiger.

You probably knew that<BG>

[ktinkel]

Make sure in PS that all the files have the same profile embedded. Apple RGB, Adobe RGB, whatever you like. That way all the numbers should mean the same thing in RGB mode.Does that mean I should impose my setting on all images as I open them?

In CS2 there is a way to exchange swatches palettes between applications. With that, so long as you are using the same flavor of RGB, you shouldn't have any more problems. The numbers will be the same.I guess that is one more thing that tilts me toward CS2, expensive though it is. (And I am annoyed by that activation junk, but oh, well.)

Watch out for Tiger. I'm still holding off installing it. I don't know if there are problems with CS2 and Tiger--and it's no doubt too early to know, but read on Macintouch. Apparently there are still several problems with Tiger so you want to make sure you don't have programs that will break under Tiger.

You probably knew that<BG>Indeed. Reading Macintouch (and other Mac sites) is mainly what makes me nervous about Tiger. Does Tiger still support Classic? If not, no dice for sure — not until FontLab brings out the long-overdue Mac OS X-compatible version of Fontographer.

I had thought I would get Tiger and CS2 and install them together — after Apple and Adobe release enough updates so that everything works. But it may make more sense to do CS2 and then wait for Tiger. Thanks.

[Michael Rowley]

KT:

Does Tiger still support Classic?

Microsoft has a diagnostic program that examines all your applications and gives a report on those that would not work properly in Windows XP: possibly Apple has a similar program for Tiger (on the principle 'Anything you can do . . .').

[ktinkel]

Microsoft has a diagnostic program that examines all your applications and gives a report on those that would not work properly in Windows XP: possibly Apple has a similar program for Tiger (on the principle 'Anything you can do . . .').Not sure, but I know I can find out on the Apple web site.

I was looking for a lazy way out! <g>

[Michael Rowley]

KT:

I was looking for a lazy way out

When I ran the program to see what probems I might have in upgrading from Win 2000 to Win XP, there was only one application that wouldn't work: one that I had never used or even knew existed. Very reassuring. I imagine that you will find the same with Mac OS 10.3, since the real break was between Mac 9 and Mac 10.

[ktinkel]

When I ran the program to see what probems I might have in upgrading from Win 2000 to Win XP, there was only one application that wouldn't work: one that I had never used or even knew existed. Very reassuring. I imagine that you will find the same with Mac OS 10.3, since the real break was between Mac 9 and Mac 10.Nice theory, but it appears that quite a few programs will need updating for Tiger. And, unfortunately, I use some of them.

This particular question is whether it will still support Classic (the ability to run OS 9 apps within OS X) because one of my pivotal programs can only be run that way.

[Shane Stanley]

This particular question is whether it will still support Classic (the ability to run OS 9 apps within OS X) because one of my pivotal programs can only be run that way.

It runs Classic fine.

Shane

[ktinkel]

It runs Classic fine.Merci. I knew someone would know. Is the Classic installer on the CD?

[Shane Stanley]

Merci. I knew someone would know. Is the Classic installer on the CD?

Good question: looks like it's not on the DVD. I did one of those archive-and-install jobs, and first time I ran Classic it said some bits needed updating, did the updating, and Classic fired up.

Shane

[ktinkel]

Good question: looks like it's not on the DVD. I did one of those archive-and-install jobs, and first time I ran Classic it said some bits needed updating, did the updating, and Classic fired up.Wonder what happens if you are not updating an older version. Is there still a way to install Classic?

Anyway, forewarned is forearmed, or something like that. I think I’ll wait a while anyway.

Thanks, Shane.

[Cristen Gillespie]

Does that mean I should impose my setting on all images as I open them?

I guess that is one more thing that tilts me toward CS2, expensive though it is. (And I am annoyed by that activation junk, but oh, well.)

Indeed. Reading Macintouch (and other Mac sites) is mainly what makes me nervous about Tiger. Does Tiger still support Classic? If not, no dice for sure — not until FontLab brings out the long-overdue Mac OS X-compatible version of Fontographer.

I had thought I would get Tiger and CS2 and install them together — after Apple and Adobe release enough updates so that everything works. But it may make more sense to do CS2 and then wait for Tiger. Thanks.

Should you impose? Ewww, sticky question, and no precise answer, like a lot of things CM. If Adobe would give us a preview upon opening a file with a profile mismatch or no profile at all, so we could see in advance what our choices would do to the file, I wouldn't consider that part of Adobe color mismanagement<G>

I never convert automatically. If the file comes from elsewhere, I always open as is. If it has a profile embedded, I may well keep it that way, and create all my subsequent files with that profile. It really depends upon whether you're one in a chain that will work with the files, or the last one to hand it off and it doesn't matter what profile is embedded since a) the printer is going to strip the profile and mess with you anyway, or b) the printer is going to use whatever profile he/she gets. I don't care that my working space doesn't match the embedded profile. You want consistency with your files that have the numbers in them that you're working between, not necessarily with your working space.

But I do make sure each program has some way to interpret the RGB numbers. If one file is Adobe RGB, another is sRGB, you've got problems if you're trying to make the colors match exactly. No matter what, just to see the image some profile is being used to tell the monitor what to display. The default in Adobe is your working space. That file without a profile is being seen as if it has your working space profile embedded.

I've read Tiger supports Classic, but it doesn't come with it. First with the iMac Panther disks Classic was a separate program that wasn't installed. Now I think you have to get it somewhere. See the handwriting on the wall anyone?<sigh> I too have a couple of Classic programs I'm not yet going to upgrade.

I went ahead and installed CS2 without installing Tiger. I thought I might do it all at once, but the more I read Macintouch, the more I have decided to let the air clear. Panther is doing just fine<G>

[ktinkel]

I've read Tiger supports Classic, but it doesn't come with it. First with the iMac Panther disks Classic was a separate program that wasn't installed. Now I think you have to get it somewhere. See the handwriting on the wall anyone?<sigh> I too have a couple of Classic programs I'm not yet going to upgrade.

I went ahead and installed CS2 without installing Tiger. I thought I might do it all at once, but the more I read Macintouch, the more I have decided to let the air clear. Panther is doing just fine<G>That is what I will do. Finally, Panther is pretty good. I’ll just practice conservation of upgrades for a while longer! <g>

Macintouch is a wonderful resource (it’s been my home page for years; and I have been trusting Rik since he and Rick LePage published it as a print newsletter), but it is not infallible. Some of the complaints turn out to be user error. But I think we can infer something from the sheer volume of reported Tiger problems.

[Shane Stanley]

Wonder what happens if you are not updating an older version. Is there still a way to install Classic?

Just drag a copy of a system folder. I suspect it still comes on a separate CD for people who buy new Macs, same as with Panther.

I'm looking forward to never needing it again...

Shane

[Shane Stanley]

Macintouch is a wonderful resource (it’s been my home page for years; and I have been trusting Rik since he and Rick LePage published it as a print newsletter), but it is not infallible. Some of the complaints turn out to be user error.

It seems that a large number of the correspndents are inveterate system fiddlers with too much time on their hands.

I don't see any great need to rush into Tiger. Sure, it's faster. And the Finder finally updates quickly! But many of the changes aren't relevant to a lot of users (e.g., improvements in mixed networking environments). Spotlight is useful, but the interface of it needs work. And Automator is a great invention for the script-shy. But a lot of the other improvements are stuff developers will take advantage of over time.

Shane

[ktinkel]

Just drag a copy of a system folder. I suspect it still comes on a separate CD for people who buy new Macs, same as with Panther.

I'm looking forward to never needing it again...Oh, I look forward to that as well. But looking forward and being in that happy land are two different things! <g>

[Shane Stanley]

Oh, I look forward to that as well. But looking forward and being in that happy land are two different things! <g>

Definitely. I'm getting to the point where I wonder whether I might just set up an old Mac for Classic stuff. As the need drops, that starts to look more convenient.

Shane

[ElyseC]

Definitely. I'm getting to the point where I wonder whether I might just set up an old Mac for Classic stuff. As the need drops, that starts to look more convenient. Interesting idea, kind of like considering setting up a lone, barebones PC to run a single Windows-only app for which there is no MacOS equivalent.

I suppose I could do that, too, but wonder how to get it to play well on my network. Every time I've tried to bring up an OS9 Mac over the network, it pulled itself off the OSX machine from which I was trying to open it, after anywhere from seconds to minutes -- or it simply refused to mount at all.

Hm...what an interesting thought about and potential re-purposing for one of my old machines...IF I can get it to reliably mount, that is. Hm...perhaps the old Pismo PB is the best candidate, given that it's the only one that can still burn CDs (via external USB burner). Maybe I could wipe it clean and install 9.2.2 (or whatever was the last "Classic") on it, and install QX5 (so I can save down to v4 to get ID to open legacy files). Hm...............

[Cristen Gillespie]

That is what I will do. Finally, Panther is pretty good. I’ll just practice conservation of upgrades for a while longer! <g>

Macintouch is a wonderful resource (it’s been my home page for years; and I have been trusting Rik since he and Rick LePage published it as a print newsletter), but it is not infallible. Some of the complaints turn out to be user error. But I think we can infer something from the sheer volume of reported Tiger problems.

Obviously, I'm fairly new to Macintouch, although I did sometimes drop in for discussions on the apps. They could be relevant to Windows users too.

I don't want to get too used to Panther since Tiger is here. I figure I may as well not develop habits that I'll find I need to change. But since I'm new to both OSX and CS2, if I figure out what works and what doesn't in CS2, I'll have a better idea of what Tiger is doing to the app, if anything.

One of the nifty features of Tiger that I doubt you paid any attention to is the ability to swap my Control/Command keys to match Windows. It's not that I think that the Windows keyboard is better. It's that I would prefer consistency between the two, and it's Apple that is making that possible.

And yes, my scrollbar arrows are at opposite ends<G> I never could get used to having them together. I still can't get used to having apps open in less than full window, either. Just yesterday I grabbed at the ruler in ID to drag out a guide, only to realize I was suddenly in AI again--it was AI's ruler I had grabbed. That sort of thing happens to me all the time. I need *some* features to work as expected so I can go brain dead on them, concentrate on others. In Adobe, I have to remember to always work in full screen mode, something else I'm not used to.

[ktinkel]

I still can't get used to having apps open in less than full window, either. Just yesterday I grabbed at the ruler in ID to drag out a guide, only to realize I was suddenly in AI again--it was AI's ruler I had grabbed. That sort of thing happens to me all the time. I need *some* features to work as expected so I can go brain dead on them, concentrate on others. In Adobe, I have to remember to always work in full screen mode, something else I'm not used to.I hate apps that take up all my screen (Illustrator does that, in fact; maybe I should look into my prefs, huh?)

I do use Hide a lot (Command-H, in all apps except Adobe’s other than Acrobat), so I don’t tend to click on a program I am not using by accident. But there are times when the ability to view one app while working in another is very useful. So my screen is often a mess, windows all over the place. Suits me. (Of course, it helps to have this huge display.)

[Cristen Gillespie]

I tend to spend most of my time in Adobe apps, where Cmd-H is too useful as it is. Is there something else I can do in Panther that would keep me from landing in the wrong program with a careless click?

In Windows, I Tile or Cascade when I want to see another app at the same time. But my 19" Samsung is MUCH smaller than my 20" iMac! It's very uncomfortable to work in such a teeny space<G> The Mac has plenty of room, and I know it can be very helpful to have the apps up and available. But even using OS9 for a long time, I never managed to learn to avoid those clicks in the wrong spot.

> So my screen is often a mess, windows all over the place. Suits me.

Heck, I can manage that with just ONE app open. LOL They all use so many palettes, and I have a tendency to drag those around so much, my desktop starts to look like my real desktop<sigh>

[ktinkel]

They all use so many palettes, and I have a tendency to drag those around so much, my desktop starts to look like my real desktop<sigh>True enough. But moaning about Adobe palette bloat is food for a different thread! <g>

Command-H doesn’t seem to do anything in Illustrator; not sure in Photoshop.

There used to be something called QuicKeys that allowed one to reconfigure keyboard shortcuts. Those were simpler times, though — might be hopeless today.

[Shane Stanley]

Is there something else I can do in Panther that would keep me from landing in the wrong program with a careless click?

Go to Keyboard Shortcuts in the Keyboard & Mouse System Preferences pane.

Shane

[Cristen Gillespie]

True enough. But moaning about Adobe palette bloat is food for a different thread! <g>

Command-H doesn’t seem to do anything in Illustrator; not sure in Photoshop.

There used to be something called QuicKeys that allowed one to reconfigure keyboard shortcuts. Those were simpler times, though — might be hopeless today.

Thank heavens for the palette well in PS and the Control bar in AI, but there are still enough palettes that get opened to make a complete mess of things. When I think about it, I use Workspace to clean them up. I don't often think about it. I'm thinking about what I'm doing, which is why the desktop is such a mess<G>

Cmd-H hides the selection (not the object, but the bit that shows it's selected), PS and AI.

[Cristen Gillespie]

Go to Keyboard Shortcuts in the Keyboard & Mouse System Preferences pane.

Shane

Okay, I'm there, and I'm completely lost. There's no Cmd-H that KT is talking about to show or hide an app. Are you saying under Applications, where there is nothing, I should create a new keyboard shortcut? How do I know what the "exact name of the menu command" I want is?