Compressed vs. uncompressed??

[Bill Murmann]

When I save a TIF image in Paint Shop Pro, I'm given a choice of three options: (1) Uncompressed; (2) LZW Compressed; and (3) Packbits Compressed.

Unfortunately, I don't know what these options mean. I'v just been using the "Uncompressed" choice because it's highlighted when the dialog box opens.

I'd appreciate any information about using these options.

--Bill

P.S. Sooner or later, I'm hopefully going to learn enough to halfway know what I'm doing with images. <s>

[Michael Rowley]

Bill:

LZW Compressed

I can tell you what that means, at least. It's a method of going through the description of the image, which is lots of bytes of binary code, and allotting a shorter code to each byte that's repeated. If the original were text, for example, each time 'the' occurred, it might be given the code '0000 0001'. When the receiver unencodes the compressed file, it turns all the '0000 0001's back to 'the's, etc., so the compression is 'lossless'.

[Bill Murmann]

Thanks very much, Michael. That's more than I knew before. <s> "Lossless" sounds good. I wonder how LZW compression works with digital photos and with e-mailing photos?

--Bill

[Michael Rowley]

Bill:

I wonder how LZW compression works with digital photos and with e-mailing photos

LZW compression is used for the Zip format, PDFs etc., so it works quite well for pictures, but there may be some better methods of lossless compression. Our experts should know—but text is quite complicated enough for me.

[ktinkel]

Thanks very much, Michael. That's more than I knew before. <s> "Lossless" sounds good. I wonder how LZW compression works with digital photos and with e-mailing photos?I am almost in over my head here, but: I believe LZW compression’s big advantage is that some RIPs and layout software can decompress the files on the fly.

Otherwise, StuffIt and Zip formats, also lossless (but not the same as LZW), are more commonly used for e-mail and archiving photos and other bitmaps.

[djb]

Thanks very much, Michael. That's more than I knew before. <s> "Lossless" sounds good. I wonder how LZW compression works with digital photos and with e-mailing photos? --Bill

Compression was developed to deal with expensive storage and slow networks. Now that those issues have pretty much been dealt with there's really no need to compress images.

Consider also long term archiving. Saving your data in a close to original form as possible goes some way to minimizing incompatibilities in the future.

Anyone still have DiskDoubler or CompactPro archives? If you needed to get into them, how would you do it? Those were common formats not so long ago.

djb

[Bill Murmann]

Thanks, Michael. Hopefully, I can pick up some tips. The more I learn, the more I realize how complicated this stuff is. <s>

--Bill

[Bill Murmann]

Well, I'm really in over my head. <s> I'm happy to learn, though.

When I've been working with TIFs, I've just kept things in an "Uncompressed" format. I don't know if that's good or bad when compared to "LZW Compression" and "Packbits Compression" options. (??)

This stuff is interesting. I'll probably be 100 years old before I start to understand it. <s>

--Bill

[Bill Murmann]

Ah. It sounds like I'm concerned about something that is part of old technology. (??)

--Bill

[ktinkel]

Ah. It sounds like I'm concerned about something that is part of old technology. (??)Not necessarily.

If you have plenty of storage capacity, archiving TIFFs in their native state makes some sense. On a CD, I would do that, for future accessibility.

However, if not, using Zip or StuffIt compression is not that likely to create obsolete files in the near term. We should all be checking all our archives every year or so, anyway, to make sure that the storage media, file formats, and compatible apps are still accessible.

And when transmitting TIFFs (and many other types of files), using StuffIt or Zip seems to protect the contents from corruption, especially when moving the files across platforms.

So while the technology is old, I wouldn’t say it is quite over the hill yet!

[Bill Murmann]

<<...when transmitting TIFFs...(etc.)...>>

I didn't know that Zipped TIFFs, etc. are less susceptible to corruption when being transmitted. Good to know.

--Bill

[Michael Rowley]

Bill:

I didn't know that Zipped TIFFs, etc. are less susceptible to corruption when being transmitted

Zone Alarm (and probably others) has a program that wraps all attachments before they're transmitted. I receive them regularly from one user; they have some outlandish file-name termination, but PKZip deals with them all right.

[Steve Rindsberg]

No worries, Bill.

By the time you start in on learning the second half of it, the first half will start to mutate beyond recognition.

[Bill Murmann]

<s>

--Bill

[Bill Murmann]

<<...but PKZIP deals with them all right...>>

Good to know. I seem to recall at some point becoming a paying customer for PKZIP and getting the latest version. I haven't heard a word from them since, however. This is strange because other companies like ZoneAlarm Pro and Norton Anti-Virus always let you know when they want you to renew a subscription, or to sell you a new and improved product. (??)

--Bill

[Michael Rowley]

Bill:

I haven't heard a word from them since

I bought my PKZip for Windows some time ago, and I haven't heard anything about an upgrade. But I haven't met anything queer in the way of compacted files either.

[terrie]

>>billm: When I save a TIF image in Paint Shop Pro, I'm given a choice of three options: (1) Uncompressed; (2) LZW Compressed; and (3) Packbits Compressed.

The only time I've ever had a problem with a TIFF file (and it was *many* years ago) was when I saved it with LZW compression. Since then, I always save UNcompressed and have never had a problem with any of my TIFF files...

I'd recommend saving UNcompressed...

PKZip was the first zip package I bought--on my first pc so this was in the DOS and win 3.1 days. I can't remember why I later bought Winzip ( http://www.winzip.com ) but I've been using it ever since. What I like about Winzip is that all updates they've made since I bought it--at least 8 years--have been free. It sells for $29 so it's not too pricey...nice piece of software...

Terrie

Terrie

[Steve Rindsberg]

Ya probably bought WinZip because PKZip was having growing/legal pains at the time and as I recall they weren't entirely convinced it was worth wasting dev time on this Windows thing ... probably go away in a year or two like the previous versions did.

Ooops.

Nico Mak ran with it. And ran off with the market. And I can't think of anyone better to have done it ... it's been an amazing ride for 29 bucks, hasn't it? I get to feeling bad about it and register another copy every so often. <g>

[Michael Rowley]

Steve:

register another copy every so often

Because you've lost your registration code?

[terrie]

>>stever: Ya probably bought WinZip because PKZip was having growing/legal pains at the time and as I recall they weren't entirely convinced it was worth wasting dev time on this Windows thing ... probably go away in a year or two like the previous versions did.

ROFL!!! I *think* it had to do with the cost of buying a license--wanted it because of our clipart--and I think Winzip was less expensive...but I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly...


>>it's been an amazing ride for 29 bucks, hasn't it? I get to feeling bad about it and register another copy every so often. <g>

Indeed...I did buy the license for the separate exe-maker--again because of our clipart. It's a really nice little app...

Terrie

[Steve Rindsberg]

Because I've gotten so much use out of the software and so many free updates that I figure I owe the guy. I'm still using the original registration code from 1903 or whenever.

[Steve Rindsberg]

Ah, right ... PKZip for windows was a bit stiff when it came out.

I think that was about the time we were looking for a developer kit so we could include ZIP functionality in some software we were writing. They also had something like that but it was way too costly and as I recall the licensing scheme was crazed.

Interesting that the one we ended up with (and that worked very well) was the same thing MS eventually licensed for use in Windows XP (Dynazip).

[Bill Murmann]

<<...PKZIP...>>

Oops. I just realized PKZIP is some old software that I used to have. I bought WinZip--but still haven't heard a word from them since about upgrades or anything else.

--Bill

[Michael Rowley]

Steve:

I'm still using the original registration code from 1903

Congratulations! I've also paid my $29, but my version (v. 9, SR1) is now marked 'Evaluation version'. WinZip tells me I've no need to uninstal the previous version, but it doesn't say that I should note my registration code first or assume that if I had a registered version I probably had paid for it.

Actually WinZip is not better than PKZip for Windows, but it achieved popularity in the few months it took for the latter to catch up.

[fhaber]

Ah, this thread gives me an opportunity both to spout and to ask (g).

Bloviation: I'm strongly in favor of ZIPping everything for storage and transmission. ZIP's 32-bit CRC seems quite sufficient as protection against data corruption. You're warned quickly and efficiently when you extract. The only thing that could be better is some redundancy for data recovery, and possibly some hashing for security (CRCs are easy to fake, which is why they're disappearing on the net).

I got my ancient WinZIP license free, so I threw them a bone for the (Win) executable creator. I probably should throw them another. Talk about value!

FYI: ZIP has several possibilities for compression schemes, and several more of historical interest only. There are programs that don't support everything.

Question: ZIP is easy and native on OS X now, right? It's totally replaced SIT? And I actually got asked about CompactPro files a couple of years ago. I think the user found a Stuffit version that dealt with these. I'd be helpless with a Disk Doubler file.

[ktinkel]

Question: ZIP is easy and native on OS X now, right? It's totally replaced SIT? And I actually got asked about CompactPro files a couple of years ago. I think the user found a Stuffit version that dealt with these. I'd be helpless with a Disk Doubler file.Panther and later versions of Mac OS X have .zip compression/extraction built in. (And Safari automatically extracts .zip or .sit files that it comes across.)

Most versions of the OS also ship with StuffIt Expander, and it automatically extracts most (perhaps all) the formats on the list below.

If you need to make more than .zip files, you can buy StuffIt (Standard or Deluxe), which will create most of those formats (except those marked *).

So, yes it is easy and native on the newest versions of the OS, but I still see a lot of StuffIt files, and the web is awash in them.

Nary a mention of Disk Doubler format.

Stuffit (.sit/.sea)
StuffitX (.sitx)
Zip (.zip)
TAR (.tar)
Lha (.lha, .lzh)*
Bzip (.bz, .tbz, .tbz2)
Gzip (.gz, .tgz)
Unix Compress (.Z)*
Arc (.arc, .pak)
Arj (.arj)
Compact Pro (.cpt)
RAR (.rar)
PrivateFile (.pf)
BinHex (.hqx)*
UUcode (.uu, .uue)*
MacBinary (.bin)*
AppleSingle (.AS)*
BASE64/MIME (.b64, .mim, .mme)*

[terrie]

>>stever: Interesting that the one we ended up with (and that worked very well) was the same thing MS eventually licensed for use in Windows XP (Dynazip).

Ohhh...interesting...so XP has zip functionality built in???

Terrie

[terrie]

>>billm: I bought WinZip--but still haven't heard a word from them since about upgrades or anything else.

You've never heard from Winzip? Interesting...I get emails every so often telling me about new versions...you might pop over to their site http://winzip.com and maybe there's a place to register for their emails...

Terrie

[Michael Rowley]

Terrie:

so XP has zip functionality built in

Didn't you know Windows has every mod. con.? But it's part of Internet Explorer, I think. I selected IE, and afterwards left-clicking the filename opened it using IE, but if I right-clicked and then clicked 'extract' the familiar PKZip window opened. (I suppose with you—and Steve R.—you get WinZip.)

[terrie]

>>michaelr: Didn't you know Windows has every mod. con.?

LOL!! I'm running W2K but my sister has XP and I was going to get her WinZip but apparently there's no need...of course, having to use IE to access it would immediately make it suspect in my eyes...IE = OH GAG...'-}}

Thanks!

Terrie

[fhaber]

The ZIP functionality is built into *Windows* Explorer, the main GUI filemanager, not into the web browser (Internet Explorer).

No comment on how Microsoft overloads nouns. Just remember, it ain't about debasing the language, it's about being object-oriented.

The Red Queen says so.

[Steve Rindsberg]

WinZip (and PKZip too, I'd imagine?) can open all manner of surprising things. Unix tar archives, older-style binary-to-7-bit text encoding schemes whose initials I can't even remember any more, ask and I'll dig it up; MS CAB files (very handy at times); and lots more. Nice to have it all in one app.

[Michael Rowley]

F.:

The ZIP functionality is built into *Windows* Explorer, the main GUI filemanager, not into the web browser (Internet Explorer)

Not according to my copy of Windows: the word before 'Explorer' is 'Internet'. I've just confirmed that.

[Steve Rindsberg]

At the very least, XP can search within ZIP archives and Win Explorer can open them and extract contents. No wait ... right click, New ... Compressed (zipped) folder is one of the options (see, it treats zips like folders). And you can drag files into existing zips. And send selected files to Compressed (zipped) --- there they go again --- folders.

This, btw, on XP Pro that's nearly virgin. Almost nothing installed on it it, and no Winzip for sure.

[Steve Rindsberg]

WRT the Red Queen and MS, I think I prefer her more well-known quote to "it's about being object-oriented"

[Michael Rowley]

Terrie:

I'm running W2K

That's OK: any version of Windows since Windows 98ME can extract from ZIP files. Mind you, I didn't know that when I was using Windows 2000.

You don't have to use Internet Explorer as your Web browser; I do, because I'm not keen on collecting browsers.

By the way, Stuffit for Windows was said to be a very efficient for extracting from all sorts of compresseds, and it had another virtue: it was free. There's no need for it now.

[Michael Rowley]

Steve:

XP Pro that's nearly virgin

Is it possible to be nearly virgin? I thought that was like being a little pregnant . . .

[Michael Rowley]

Steve:

WinZip (and PKZip too, I'd imagine?) can open all manner of surprising things

The question is though, can the program built into Windows (and now, the Mac OS) open them too? I don't think though that I'd bother to buy either PKZip or WinZip if the only use for them I had was opening ARC, TAR, etc. But both programs now offer to compress all attachments I send from Outlook, which is very decent of them.

(By the way, I've probably messed up the 'thread' system by sending my last message—about virginity—while looking at the wrong message from you.)

[terrie]

>>michaelr: That's OK: any version of Windows since Windows 98ME can extract from ZIP files. Mind you, I didn't know that when I was using Windows 2000.

Interesting! I had no idea...

>>You don't have to use Internet Explorer as your Web browser; I do, because I'm not keen on collecting browsers.

I'm not keen on IE...good thing we have choices...'-}}

>>By the way, Stuffit for Windows was said to be a very efficient for extracting from all sorts of compresseds, and it had another virtue: it was free. There's no need for it now.

I never used Stuffit but do have the Aladdin Expander just in case...rarely, if ever used...

Terrie

[Michael Rowley]

Terrie:

I never used Stuffit but do have the Aladdin Expander

That is [Aladdin] Stuffit Expander for Windows. I looked at it years ago, and I've never stopped getting e-mails from Aladdin. Pity though that they're all advertising Mac programs.

[Anne Wright]

Not according to my copy of Windows: the word before 'Explorer' is 'Internet'. I've just confirmed that.

Michael, I swear MS made it confusing on purpose. The Windows Explorer window that opens when you go to My Computer or My Documents or for any file browsing is explorer.exe and can be found in C:\Windows.

Internet Explorer is actually iexplore.exe and can be located in C:\Program Files\Internet Explorer.

This is on the American version of Windows XP SP1, and assumes the installation is on C: drive.

Two different programs with similar names.
Anne

[Michael Rowley]

Anne:

I don't know whether Micosoft made it confusing on purpose, but both names—Windows Explorer & Internet Explorer—have been in use for some time. I think that Internet Explorer has priority. Similar (or worse) confusion reigns between Outlook Express & Outlook.

If you go to Folder Options, choose the File Types tab, and look at the preferences for opening files with the extension 'ZIP', you'll find that 'Internet Explorer' is one of the options. That settles the matter for me, but it might have been changed with one of Microsoft's many patches, updates, etc.—I've got them all, using Windows XP Pro and SP2.

[Steve Rindsberg]

Steve:

XP Pro that's nearly virgin

Is it possible to be nearly virgin? I thought that was like being a little pregnant . . .
Qualitatively, yes. It's an oxymoron.

Viewed in the span of time, though ... a virgin until five minutes ago is more nearly virgin than a non-virgin since '48.

Or quantitatively ... a newlywed the day after vs oh, your average celebrity, let's say.
That's the ticket. This system's been ... umm .... known. But only by a few.

[Steve Rindsberg]

Steve:

WinZip (and PKZip too, I'd imagine?) can open all manner of surprising things

The question is though, can the program built into Windows (and now, the Mac OS) open them too? I don't think though that I'd bother to buy either PKZip or WinZip if the only use for them I had was opening ARC, TAR, etc. But both programs now offer to compress all attachments I send from Outlook, which is very decent of them.

(By the way, I've probably messed up the 'thread' system by sending my last message—about virginity—while looking at the wrong message from you.)
It's been so long since I saw any Arcs, Tars, LZHs or the like that I don't really know. It does seem to be able to open CAB files. It or something else w/in Windows, that is.

I trust you can tell Win/PKZip "G'wan, go 'way" if you don't want emails compressed?

[ktinkel]

That is [Aladdin] Stuffit Expander for Windows. I looked at it years ago, and I've never stopped getting e-mails from Aladdin. Pity though that they're all advertising Mac programs.A couple of years ago Aladdin became Allume, and it still makes and sells Windows utilities, including StuffIt and others. (If you really are getting e-mails from Aladdin, they may be fakes.)

This is a link to Allume’s Windows (http://www.allume.com/win/) page.

[Michael Rowley]

Steve:

I trust you can tell Win/PKZip "G'wan, go 'way" if you don't want emails compressed?

Oh yes: at least you can in PKZip. And even with 'zip attachments' turned on, it just asks 'Do you want me to zip the attachments?'; it's very polite. I do occasionally zip attachments if there's more than one, but there's always one in a group that doesn't know how to deal with a zipped files.

[Michael Rowley]

KT:

A couple of years ago Aladdin became Allume

I had noticed, but I can remember Aladdin more easily than Allume. The e-mails have come from Allume for a long time now. 'Aladdin' still finds Stuffit in Google.

[terrie]

>>michaelr: That is [Aladdin] Stuffit Expander for Windows. I looked at it years ago, and I've never stopped getting e-mails from Aladdin. Pity though that they're all advertising Mac programs.

I've never gotten an email from them...must have either checked or unchecked the right box...'-}}

Terrie

[Michael Rowley]

Terrie:

I've never gotten an email from them

You've not missed anything.

[terrie]

>>michaelr: You've not missed anything.

'-}}

Terrie

[Steve Rindsberg]

That's a very nice feature, then (optional zipping of attachments).

I wonder if it works with email apps other than Outlook. Does the documentation mention others?

[Michael Rowley]

Steve:

Does the documentation mention others?

No, only Outlook. It's actually an plug-in for PKZip that's supplied with 'PKZip Professional', so there might be other plug-ins on the PKWare Web site.

[JVegVT]

The ability to Zip and Unzip files has been built into XP's Explorer file manager since Day One. In fact, I think this feature first appeared in Windows Me.

Windows Explorer and Internet Explorer are close enough to be considered different faces of the same program. You can go to a URL with Windows Explorer. You can use Internet Explorer as a file manager. Don't forget that Microsoft entwined the browser very tightly into the innards of Windows.
--Judy M.

[Anne Wright]

If you go to Folder Options, choose the File Types tab, and look at the preferences for opening files with the extension 'ZIP', you'll find that 'Internet Explorer' is one of the options. That settles the matter for me, but it might have been changed with one of Microsoft's many patches, updates, etc.—I've got them all, using Windows XP Pro and SP2.

Michael,
On my WinXP SP1, whether I open a ZIP file by double clicking in an Explorer window or by right clicking and selecting Open With Internet Explorer, the window in which the file contents show up in is an Explorer window. If I go to File Types and look at what ZIP files are to be opened with, it states "Compressed (Zipped) Folder" not Internet Explorer.

Maybe it is the difference between SP1 and SP2; something in the security settings to force the virus scanners to scan zipped files when they are opened? Eventually I need to install SP2 so I'll try to remember to see if it makes a difference.

Anne

[Michael Rowley]

Judy:

Don't forget that Microsoft entwined the browser very tightly into the innards of Windows

Yes, but don't forget that Microsoft was ordered to unentwine it quite a long time ago. Possibly the copy of Windows XP I bought last July had the 'old' version still, but I should have thought it should have been corrected by the time MS had issued two SRs and umpteen updates.

[Michael Rowley]

Anne:

Maybe it is the difference between SP1 and SP2

That's quite possible. Although many companies have delayed getting SR2, there's no reason that I know of to delay installing it on a stand-alone computer, and there were many copies around on various cover-CDs.

As I've said, I have only recently found out that opening zip files was possible without PKZip or WinZip, so my normal setting is 'open with PKZip'. It's not necessary though if you never receive ARC files etc.—and I haven't seen one for years.

[Anne Wright]

Michael, I just have not had the time to troubleshoot any problems - and every time I'd think I was ready I would read about a new problem with scanners or the like. Maybe next week as breeding season is winding down, it's starting to get hot, and I can use an excuse to stay in the air conditioning!
Anne

[Steve Rindsberg]

"Outlook only"

Pity.

[Molly/CA]

And when transmitting TIFFs (and many other types of files), using StuffIt or Zip seems to protect the contents from corruption, especially when moving the files across platforms.


What Bill said --good to know! Thanks for that thought.

[JVegVT]

Microsoft was never ordered to unentwine Internet Explorer and Windows. Microsoft entered into a settlement with Sun whereby Microsoft would no longer produce its own version of Java. No big deal--IE works fine with Sun Java.

The European Union ordered Microsoft to produce a version of Windows that didn't include the Media Player. You can also set up Windows not to display IE, Media Player, and something else (Outlook Express?), but that just hides them, it doesn't remove them. If you're using a program that's hard-coded to require one of those "hidden" components, it will spring into action.
--Judy M.

[JVegVT]

I put it off for a long time, but a couple of weeks ago I finally installed SP 2 on my XP desktop. No problems so far. But I don't use Windows much these days (mostly I use Linux), so maybe something awaits me. In fact, though, for all the alarmist stuff, XP SP2 works fine for the vast majority of users.

I haven't installed it on my laptop yet. Don't know if I will--I may not have enough free disk space on Drive C (I have a gig free, which may not be enough). I'm not in a hurry. I already have a firewall and antivirus, I rarely use IE, don't use OE, and apply Critical Updates after they percolate for a few days.
--Judy M.

[Michael Rowley]

Judy:

The European Union ordered Microsoft to produce a version of Windows that didn't include the Media Player

I thought that was much later, and had nothing to do with Internet Explorer. But these things are reported only slightly more often than European cases are reported in the USA, so I don't know much about Microsoft's many law suits. I stand corrected!

[JVegVT]

The IE-in-the-operating-system issue was part of a court action years ago. I believe the result was that Microsoft was found to have engaged in monopolistic practices, but they did not have to remove IE from Windows. I think Windows 98 was already out, and it was the first version to have IE integrated into the OS. Given that Microsoft then produced 98SE, Win Me, and XP, all of which have IE tightly knitted into the OS, that should demonstrate that they were not ordered to remove IE from the OS.
--Judy M.

[Michael Rowley]

Judy:

they did not have to remove IE from Windows

As I said, I don't remember much about the American court case; I do remember that the British dailys made much of the judge's (apparent) ability to eliminate Internet Explorer from 'Windows'. However, Windows NT is quite different from all the previous 'Windows', which ran (so it is said) on DOS. Windows 2000 (NT 5.0) and Windows XP (NT 5.1?) should be distinguished from Windows 98 etc.