What page dimensions will work?

[annc]

A potential new client needs a rework of her brochure, which is basically a price list. It's currently self-designed as a trifold A4, using the three inside columns plus the inside fold from the back, with a stapled strip as a fifth column to hold the extra information she needs. I can design it to fit in four columns at A4, but it would look crowded.

She has worked out herself that it requires a larger sheet of paper, but I don't want to push it up to A3.

She wants to go to full colour, and it will need a bleed on each edge, with printing on both sides.

What is the most economical page measurement to use for a sheet-feed press? She'll be happy with a trimmed sheet size between A4 and A3.

Do I need to select a printer before I start doing the design on this, and set the page size to suit the particular press, paper supplier and folding machine?

[djb]

What is the most economical page measurement to use for a sheet-feed press? She'll be happy with a trimmed sheet size between A4 and A3.

Do I need to select a printer before I start doing the design on this, and set the page size to suit the particular press, paper supplier and folding machine?

I would certainly talk to several printers to get an idea of their press capability.

You may well come away from the exercise with new ideas.

[donmcc]

This is tough for us in NA to answer. I have only the vaguest idea of what A4 and A5 sizes are. However, there are two considerations: paper size and press size. The press size will limit the size of the job, or the ability to print 2 or more up (which will only really be a concern if the press runs are hight). The paper size determines how much stock will be wasted with various sizes.

Thus my advice also is to talk to the printer(s) who will be quoting on the job and find out what sizes they recommend.

Don McCahill

[don Arnoldy]

Ann-

What is the most economical page measurement to use for a sheet-feed press? She'll be happy with a trimmed sheet size between A4 and A3.

You didn't mention what quantity of these you'd be printing. 1k, 10k and 100k. Also, although you said "color," you didn't say wether you meant 2-, 3-, or 4-color. Both of these things affect which press is appropriate for this job, and thus which size of paper is appropriate.

If you're looking at 1 - 10K of a 2-color job, then you're looking at running it on a small press, and thus constrained to using either A3 or A4 paper. If you're looking at a 10 - 100k of a 3- or 4-color job, then you'd use a bigger press, and print multiple copies on A2 or A1 paper.

If you are running on a press that can print no-larger-than-A3 paper, and you want the final trim size to be something-bigger-than-A4, there is no way to get more than 1-out. This means that there may be a good deal of waste. The trick then becomes how to take advantage of that waste.

You *could* create a 210 x 374, 4-panel brochure that would gate-fold to the same final size as the current brochure. Then (depending on the stock you choose) have room to squeeze out some "free" business cards, bookmarks, reply cards, or note pads around the edge.

I don't know how well odd-sized brochures are tolerated in your area--here, there are two "common" sizes, and lots of examples uncommonly-sized brochures. Do these need to fit either into a rack with other brochures or a standard business envelope? If not, you've got more latitude in sizing.

If the usage of the brochure is tolerant of size-variation, and you are using a bigger press, then you have more opportunity to reduce paper waste by changing the size of the piece. I don't have a metric imposititon table handy, so I can't give you a quick "ferinstance".

After making some preliminary decisions about paper, colors, and general size constraints, it would be an excellent idea to talk to some printers and get their input.

[PeterArnel]

I am not sure what paper sizes u have out in the "outback" if u take the traditional paper sizes in the UK to get 4 pages A4 out is SRA2 450 x 640 - the useable size is about 425 x 630 the next size is B2 520 x 720 Useable size about 490 x 710 this gives u 4 pages of oversize A4 (B4) - Because all of the world everyone prints on Heidelbergs or Komori's ( the rest follow ) printers usually have presses to take either 26" or 28"(740) or 40" (1020) wide paper - I think its alway best to talk to your printer
Peter

[annc]

I would certainly talk to several printers to get an idea of their press capability.

You may well come away from the exercise with new ideas.Thanks. I'll do that tomorrow. It's a public holiday here today (Anzac Day).

[annc]

This is tough for us in NA to answer. I have only the vaguest idea of what A4 and A5 sizes are. However, there are two considerations: paper size and press size. The press size will limit the size of the job, or the ability to print 2 or more up (which will only really be a concern if the press runs are hight). The paper size determines how much stock will be wasted with various sizes.

Thus my advice also is to talk to the printer(s) who will be quoting on the job and find out what sizes they recommend.

Don McCahillThanks, Don.

The print run will probably be around 2000, and I'll be getting quotes from a couple of printers in Brisbane who run 5/6 colour Heidelbergs, as well as a couple of local printers who run smaller machines. All will be able to quote easily on A4 or A3 with full bleed, but I was sort of hoping to get some ideas for something between A4 and A3 to make the design a bit easier.

[annc]

You didn't mention what quantity of these you'd be printing. 1k, 10k and 100k. Also, although you said "color," you didn't say wether you meant 2-, 3-, or 4-color. Both of these things affect which press is appropriate for this job, and thus which size of paper is appropriate.Sorry, Don, I forgot you people use different terms. Here, 'full colour' means 4, 5 or 6, depending on the press. Most of my clients are very cost-conscious, so I stick to 4-colour.

If you're looking at 1 - 10K of a 2-color job, then you're looking at running it on a small press, and thus constrained to using either A3 or A4 paper. If you're looking at a 10 - 100k of a 3- or 4-color job, then you'd use a bigger press, and print multiple copies on A2 or A1 paper.We're looking at 2000 full (4) colour, and even the smallest of the local presses will do oversize A4 or A3, allowing for the bleed.

If you are running on a press that can print no-larger-than-A3 paper, and you want the final trim size to be something-bigger-than-A4, there is no way to get more than 1-out. This means that there may be a good deal of waste. The trick then becomes how to take advantage of that waste.

You *could* create a 210 x 374, 4-panel brochure that would gate-fold to the same final size as the current brochure. Then (depending on the stock you choose) have room to squeeze out some "free" business cards, bookmarks, reply cards, or note pads around the edge.I'm designing new business cards as well, so that could be a good option. Although she wants gloss one side only of the business cards, because she puts appointment details on the reverse.

I don't know how well odd-sized brochures are tolerated in your area--here, there are two "common" sizes, and lots of examples uncommonly-sized brochures. Do these need to fit either into a rack with other brochures or a standard business envelope? If not, you've got more latitude in sizing.The brochures don't need to be posted or fit into a rack. I checked that, and we're changing the orientation of the business card because she has trouble with the vertical orientation of the existing ones.

If the usage of the brochure is tolerant of size-variation, and you are using a bigger press, then you have more opportunity to reduce paper waste by changing the size of the piece. I don't have a metric imposititon table handy, so I can't give you a quick "ferinstance".

After making some preliminary decisions about paper, colors, and general size constraints, it would be an excellent idea to talk to some printers and get their input.Thanks. The press size is an issue, and I will obviously have to speak to reps at both types of printers to get a cost-effective solution, then design to the constraints imposed by price. As usual. <g>

[annc]

I am not sure what paper sizes u have out in the "outback" if u take the traditional paper sizes in the UK to get 4 pages A4 out is SRA2 450 x 640 - the useable size is about 425 x 630 the next size is B2 520 x 720 Useable size about 490 x 710 this gives u 4 pages of oversize A4 (B4) - Because all of the world everyone prints on Heidelbergs or Komori's ( the rest follow ) printers usually have presses to take either 26" or 28"(740) or 40" (1020) wide paper - I think its alway best to talk to your printer
PeterThose sizes sound familiar, Peter, so I'm pretty sure they're used here. I'll do some ringing around tomorrow - can't do it today because it's Anzac Day. I'd hoped to get back to the client tomorrow, but will have to change it to Wednesday.

[Steve Rindsberg]

This is tough for us in NA to answer. I have only the vaguest idea of what A4 and A5 sizes are. However, there are two considerations: paper size and press size. The press size will limit the size of the job, or the ability to print 2 or more up (which will only really be a concern if the press runs are hight). The paper size determines how much stock will be wasted with various sizes.

Thus my advice also is to talk to the printer(s) who will be quoting on the job and find out what sizes they recommend.

Don McCahill
I can never remember the pesky things myself, so I put this together:

Page sizes
http://www.rdpslides.com/psfaq/FAQ00091.htm

[PeterArnel]

The other thing to remember is that paper will only be (say) 20% of the cost of the job and there is vitually no saving going from oversized A4 and A3. FWIW I think price lists should always be A4size with File Holes so they can be filed. They also fit an envelope

[annc]

The other thing to remember is that paper will only be (say) 20% of the cost of the job and there is vitually no saving going from oversized A4 and A3. FWIW I think price lists should always be A4size with File Holes so they can be filed. They also fit an envelopeThis is a hairdresser, Peter. She hands her price-list out to people who will probably put it on the fridge. ;-)

[Michael Rowley]

Peter:

the traditional paper sizes in the UK to get 4 pages A4 out is SRA2 450 x 640

You're quite right, of course (but I would't call SR2 'traditional'), but US Americans—and, seemingly, some Canadians—don't appreciate that the ISO 'A', 'B', etc. series etc. are all cut sizes, and the printers of course allow for trimming. The RA series is for 'normal' trims, and the SRA series is for 'extra' trims; the figures correspond to the A sizes for trimmed paper.

[ktinkel]

A potential new client needs a rework of her brochure … I have been thinking all day about what advice I would give, and I see that others have brought up all the technical points I thought of.

So speaking as a designer, a few thoughts:

I would probably begin by sketching out the ideal solution — what would be the very best way to present her information. I assume she has some sort of “sell” message on the front, with price lists inside. So how best to sell her services. Then how best to list the nuts-and-bolts details. And so on.

Then I would look for a printer, take my little dummy with me, and see how it fits in their capabilities. You say she wants full color (contrary to what others have said, that means even in North America, CMYK on both sides). Sounds to me as if you expect to use coated stock. I don’t remember off-hand what the basis size is, but if you talk to two printers, you’ll find out. Then you should be able to figure out economical printing sizes from that.

However, unless you are printing dozens of thousands or more, stock cost will not be the controlling factor. Your services (design, production) are likely to cost more than printing, for example.

Sounds like fun. Enjoy it.

[PeterArnel]

ah - now we are geting somewhere - magentic backing is required then

[PeterArnel]

or of course an 8 page A6 roll or closed gate fold that will fit in a handbag

[PeterArnel]

RA sizes are really only now available for bond paper SRA sizes are the norm - The B2 size was the poster size allowing overlap when pasting onto bill boards and the C size for envs. (I am sure u know that - just trying to educate others :-)
Peter
The B2 size is good for printing 198 x 210 (2/3 A4) 4pages 8 pages and 12 pages as there is less wasteage

[Michael Rowley]

Peter:

RA sizes are really only now available for bond paper SRA sizes are the norm

I didn't know that, but it seems reasonable.

The B and C sizes are such that you can enclose a sheet of the corresponding A size in a C envelope and put the C envelope into a B envelope (hand for sending reply-paid envelopes). They were really meant for things like envelopes, folders, etc.

I don't know if the RA sizes are universal (the A series is an ISO standard; it's a pity that they are not used much in the country that was the principal advocate of ISO). Is it, are the standard untrimmed paper sizes used outside the UK?

[annc]

ah - now we are geting somewhere - magentic backing is required thenWon't it hang open if we do that? It would make them very bulky, as well.

[annc]

or of course an 8 page A6 roll or closed gate fold that will fit in a handbagWe're looking at a gate fold. What is a closed gate fold?

[annc]

I have been thinking all day about what advice I would give, and I see that others have brought up all the technical points I thought of.

So speaking as a designer, a few thoughts:

I would probably begin by sketching out the ideal solution — what would be the very best way to present her information. I assume she has some sort of “sell” message on the front, with price lists inside. So how best to sell her services. Then how best to list the nuts-and-bolts details. And so on.

Then I would look for a printer, take my little dummy with me, and see how it fits in their capabilities. You say she wants full color (contrary to what others have said, that means even in North America, CMYK on both sides). Sounds to me as if you expect to use coated stock. I don’t remember off-hand what the basis size is, but if you talk to two printers, you’ll find out. Then you should be able to figure out economical printing sizes from that.

However, unless you are printing dozens of thousands or more, stock cost will not be the controlling factor. Your services (design, production) are likely to cost more than printing, for example.

Sounds like fun. Enjoy it.Thanks. I am enjoying the challenge.

I think I can do it on A4 with four columns on the price list side, and three (of course) on the outside. Front, as you say, is promotional, back is currently philosophy, salon times, and address. I would like to change these two around a little. Third column is inside fold, and contains fifth column of prices.

From a design point of view, do you see any problems with having four columns on the inside? Once it's open, the folds are immaterial, and it would solve our problems.

[PeterArnel]

B sizes were never really envelope sizes- but for posters
The UK always seems to follow rules and have maintained SRA sizes since they started (not like Europe)in late 60's in fact we waste ahuge amount of paper - when u think that 2 up A4 with 6 mm in middle is 297 x 426 we have to print 320 (which is Ok ) and 450 (15 mm too big)
Its the same with SRA2 we could do with 450 x 620 which on large jobs we get made.
When there was aproblem with trees some years ago i wrote to Print Week and suggested that we all went back to 10 x 8 as we would save at least 2 trees in 10 :-)
Who writes long letters these days anyway
Peter

[PeterArnel]

Closed gate folders are a real "B" to produce thats what they are - and i should washed my mouth out with soap :-)

If you take an A6 8 page the overal size will be (sort off)
148 x (a103+B105+c105+d103)
a gate fold is (a over b ) and (d over c) to give a size 148 x 210 a closed gate fold is (ab over cd) to give a size of 148 x 105
Hope this helps - though if u drink a bottle of Jester - a red from your way it helps
Peter
U could concertina

[PeterArnel]

Credit card size seem in vogue at the moment as well

[PeterArnel]

Don
If I can butt in here (sorry) With computor to plate systems it has completly changed the way we (printers) work, now it costs really no more money to print a job say 8 up as one up or what. In fact a lot of jobs are now printed sheet work ( all the fronts on one side and all the backs on the other) to save binding time . with film a set of 4 up plates would cost say $700 now it only costs $20 worth of metal - Times have really changed
Peter

[Michael Rowley]

Peter:

I don't know if the RA sizes are universal

I do know now. I hadn't followed Steve R.'s link to Markus Kuhn's excellent Web site on paper sizes.

[Michael Rowley]

Peter:

and suggested that we all went back to 10 x 8

You would have had Jan Tschichold's support, though for aesthetic reasons.

The standard sizes of untrimmed paper should be supported by the size of the platens, but I suppose most of the presses still follow the traditional sizes—the makers know which side the bread is buttered.

[PeterArnel]

but I suppose most of the presses still follow the traditional sizes—the makers know which side the bread is buttered
- thats sort of the case how ever Heidelberg have increased the width of their 1020 ( 8 up A4) to 1150 (ish) to satisfy the packaging market.
Peter

[annc]

Closed gate folders are a real "B" to produce thats what they are - and i should washed my mouth out with soap :-)

If you take an A6 8 page the overal size will be (sort off)
148 x (a103+B105+c105+d103)
a gate fold is (a over b ) and (d over c) to give a size 148 x 210 a closed gate fold is (ab over cd) to give a size of 148 x 105
Hope this helps - though if u drink a bottle of Jester - a red from your way it helps
Peter
U could concertinaOf course! I should have worked that out for myself.

Don't worry, I doubt if that would suit the content. ;-)

[annc]

Credit card size seem in vogue at the moment as wellYes, and have been for a while, I think. I have an amazon one that's been on my filing cabinet for about seven years.

[ktinkel]

I think I can do it on A4 with four columns on the price list side, and three (of course) on the outside.…

From a design point of view, do you see any problems with having four columns on the inside? Once it's open, the folds are immaterial, and it would solve our problems.If it would solve all your problems, who could possibly say it shouldn’t be done. My only concern would be that you need to use type that is too small — but if not, then why not?

[annc]

If it would solve all your problems, who could possibly say it shouldn’t be done. My only concern would be that you need to use type that is too small — but if not, then why not?She's done it in 10 point all caps, and has leader dots to the prices because of the amount of space in some places. She also has wide gaps between the columns.

There are also gaps top and bottom on three columns, and the fourth (the stapled one) is very short.

I reckon I could do it with four columns and 9 point if I selected my typeface carefully.

[PeterArnel]

Brings back memories - I printed the UK one i think

[ktinkel]

She's done it in 10 point all caps, and has leader dots to the prices because of the amount of space in some places. She also has wide gaps between the columns.

There are also gaps top and bottom on three columns, and the fourth (the stapled one) is very short.

I reckon I could do it with four columns and 9 point if I selected my typeface carefully.Or use U/lc and make 5 columns! <g>

[PeterArnel]

Girls Girls Girls - this is a haidressers price list for goodness sake

[PeterArnel]

Set it in 5 point - those little glasses that fit in a cigar case will read anything
:-)

[annc]

Brings back memories - I printed the UK one i thinkInteresting! How is it done?

[donmcc]

My comment about run length was primarily in that running 8-up, as you say, does not save a great deal if you are only printing 800 copies. Surely in that case it is cheaper to run on a smaller press, rather than clicking the big one on, and then off a minute later.

Does the setup waste still not factor in?

Don McCahill

[PeterArnel]

Don u are right - of course.
Peter

[donmcc]

Whew, it's been a while since I worked in printing, and you had me worried that my knowledge of new stuff, especially digital, had changed the playing field.

I have signed up for print 05 in Chicago this fall, where I hope to update my knowledge on print techiques and equipment. Anyone else going? (It is more for printing than prepress, although there will be a bit of the latter.) I went in 1985 and learned so much. I am forcing myself to find the time and money to go this year.

Don McCahill

[PeterArnel]

My experience is all UK based where we are a short run print market - and have got used to printing short run litho - so digital in not so attractive, saying that though we are interested and looking at the moment. But it will be for our agencies wanting overnight service - which as we have printing and more importantly finishing and laminating 24 hours we should be able to provide the back up.
Peter
I was at Chicago with about 20 printers from the UK in 1985

[ktinkel]

Whew, it's been a while since I worked in printing, and you had me worried that my knowledge of new stuff, especially digital, had changed the playing field.

I have signed up for print 05 in Chicago this fall, where I hope to update my knowledge on print techiques and equipment. Anyone else going? (It is more for printing than prepress, although there will be a bit of the latter.) I went in 1985 and learned so much. I am forcing myself to find the time and money to go this year.I was at Print 90 through 96 or so (I think). There was a strong prepress ghetto during those years, but it sure was a ghetto!

I love the presses and printing stuff, anyway, so always poked around there, getting free blank books from the binders on the exhibit floor and huge posters showing off process, materials, other goodies. But much as I love print shows, I doubt I will be at Print 05. Expect you to report back, though.

[Michael Rowley]

Peter:

have got used to printing short run litho, so digital in not so attractive

Pardon my ignorance, but I imagined 'short runs' as something that digital printing was good at: have I got it quite wrong?

[donmcc]

I was at Print 90 through 96 or so (I think). There was a strong prepress ghetto during those years, but it sure was a ghetto!

I love the presses and printing stuff, anyway, so always poked around there, getting free blank books from the binders on the exhibit floor and huge posters showing off process, materials, other goodies. But much as I love print shows, I doubt I will be at Print 05. Expect you to report back, though.

I have a huge wall map mounted on my wall from Print 85, an old map of the world about 5 feet by three feet. I will also be grabbing more this time.

I am going to be interested in seeing how the show has changed in 20 years ... in 85 they had Playmates in bikinis signing posters of themselves, and (male, of course) printers lined up forever waiting to get one. Somehow I can't imagine things being so sexist now. (And no, I did not get one of THOSE posters.)

I will report back on what I see.

Don McCahill