OK: 'titbits' or 'tidbits'?

[ktinkel]

We have been having a debate below stairs about the use of ‘titbits’ or ‘tidbits’ on our home page. So I thought I would ask the rest of you (those who care to, anyway) to comment. I don’t promise to cave in, but am interested in knowing what you think.

I prepare the page, and I used ‘titbits’ deliberately (as I prefer it — mainly because it relates to the root of the word). The term, which means ‘little,’ or ‘tasty morsel,’ is related to ‘tittle’ (as in jot and tittle, and is also related to titmouse, titwillow, etc.) It refers to a small typographic mark. According to Matthew Carter, who is a scholar as well as a type designer, it was originally the name of a horizontal mark (like a dash or tilde) to indicate that a letter had been omitted in text.

The word is spelled ‘titbit’ in most of the English-speaking world — though not universally in North America. However, we do still say ‘tit for tat’ and ‘tittle-tattle,’ terms that are related to the root meaning of ‘tit.’

A forum member wrote to us, thinking the ‘titbits’ was a typo; and a member of our staff changed the word on the page.

The ‘tidbit’ spelling is American. Probably a result of the bowdlerization of language that occurred in the 19th century. But it is no more correct than ‘titbit’ (perhaps less so, in fact).

This is clearly not earth-shatteringly important, but it is an interesting topic for discussion.

Are you offended by ‘titbits’ or ‘tidbits’ or neither or both? Or do you simply not care? We would love to know.

[Franca]

'Tidbits' is what I grew up with and therefore it jumped out at me, so I was moved to look it up ... where I discovered that here in the U.S. both 'titbit' and 'tidbit' are considered correct. I guess now that I know both are acceptable I don't care which is used, but 'titbit' is never going to sound right to me, LOL!

[Shane Stanley]

Interesting. Down Here I've heard both, but mostly tidbits. Wowserism at work?

Of course to Mac users, the newsletter by that name probably makes titbits look a bit odd.

Shane

[ElyseC]

I used ‘titbits’ deliberately (as I prefer it — mainly because it relates to the root of the word). The term, which means ‘little,’ or ‘tasty morsel,’ is related to ‘tittle’ (as in jot and tittle, and is also related to titmouse, titwillow, etc.) It refers to a small typographic mark. According to Matthew Carter, who is a scholar as well as a type designer, it was originally the name of a horizontal mark (like a dash or tilde) to indicate that a letter had been omitted in text.

The word is spelled ‘titbit’ in most of the English-speaking world — though not universally in North America. However, we do still say ‘tit for tat’ and ‘tittle-tattle,’ terms that are related to the root meaning of ‘tit.’ That is most interesting. I never knew any of it before. I love etymology. To stave off the "you have a typo" messages from members, current and future, maybe the word 'titbits' as you have it could have an * by it and a link to the bottom of the page (or wherever) with what you just wrote about it. You're right, it does have a very interesting tie-in to what we're about, but the fun of our using it will get lost, I'm afraid, unless the explanation accompanies.

Think that'd work?

[Franca]

That is most interesting. I never knew any of it before. I love etymology. To stave off the "you have a typo" messages from members, current and future, maybe the word 'titbits' as you have it could have an * by it and a link to the bottom of the page (or wherever) with what you just wrote about it. You're right, it does have a very interesting tie-in to what we're about, but the fun of our using it will get lost, I'm afraid, unless the explanation accompanies.

Think that'd work?I think that's a cool idea. Having an annotation such as that would be quite in keeping with our forum's character and purpose!

[LoisWakeman]

As a UK citizen, I stand up and say "pfui" to tidbits, a horrid Americanism that really grates on my shell-like ears. Your eloquent defence (or defense) of titbits made me cheer!

I second the idea of explaining the word - but on a linked page, not the home one, to keep the flow going. Anything we can do to make people think about language, rather than relying on spell-checkers to mess it up for them, is a Good Thing in my book.

[annc]

Interesting. Down Here I've heard both, but mostly tidbits.Once upon a time, I'd have blamed that aberration on your football code, but I can't do that any more. <g>

I grew up with 'titbits', and had never heard or seen 'tidbits' until the now-ubiquitous Mac newsletter appeared.

Blame it on the tropical sun, or whatever...

[ktinkel]

… tidbits, a horrid Americanism that really grates on my shell-like ears. Your eloquent defence (or defense) of titbits made me cheer!Thanks — glad to oblige! <g>

I second the idea of explaining the word - but on a linked page, not the home one, to keep the flow going.I must confess that one of my motives for bringing this up for discussion was so I could link to this thread on the next home page update.

But I think having a separate page just for such topics is a good idea. In fact, I just got permission from Matthew Carter to reprint his small essay on “tittle,” so that too could go there.

We used to have a message section for discussion of words, and it was popular. We gave it up when CIS reduced the number of sections we could have, but we could easily afford it here.

[George]

We have been having a debate below stairs about the use of ‘titbits’ or ‘tidbits’ on our home page.


Kathleen,

What I do in these situations is merely to find another way to express what is being said using another word or form of expression. One is British and the other is American, and you have both in the forum. However, at least some people are sure to find "titbits" actually offensive, so why not just avoid that.

My twopence.

George

[Richard Hunt]

There used to be a rubbishy weekly called Titbits here. Sort of tabloid trash, celebrity gossip, heart warming tales of sick children. I only ever saw year-old copies at the barber's shop or the dentist's waiting room.

Richard

[Michael Rowley]

George:

'"titbits" actually offensive'

I was amused (in an Englishman's irritating way) at the notion that 'titbits' could be offensive. The word you wanted to avoid is 'teat' (sometime pronounced 'tit'). However, there are two good reasons for preferring 'tidbit' in Anerica: first it's probably more common there, and second there was a well-known English magazine called 'Titbits'.

[Franca]

We used to have a message section for discussion of words, and it was popular. We gave it up when CIS reduced the number of sections we could have, but we could easily afford it here.That would be fun! Why not give it a try?

[Kass Johns]

...A forum member wrote to us, thinking the ‘titbits’ was a typo; and a member of our staff changed the word on the page.

Okay, okay, I confess! It was me that wrote the initial note to sysops! (Little did I know it would stir up such a discussion!!!) Yikes!

However, I was not offended, I had seriously thought it a typo. I was not aware of the titbits spelling in other parts of the world. I just remember years ago when I had used the word "fanny" on the old forum as a "polite" term for a**! Well, I got flamed *bigtime* by a few UK members for being so foul since (as I was not aware at the time) that word had a much more offensive slang meaning in the UK.

So, I thought I had better say something before someone else went off. I thought it a simple heads up.

And, let me tell you, I cannot believe how strange it is now as a new instructor in these politically-correct days to have to fend off students who are actually offended by nude paintings and other nude depictions in our History of Graphic Design textbook! (Coincidently, I spent more than 15 minutes TODAY defending nudes in art!)

And you should hear the stories from my fellow graphic art instructors at my school about when they wanted to bring in a nude model for the drawing class! The school went ballistic! (The school is a technical school and the GDesign program is only 1 year old--very unheard of stuff for a bunch of stuffy computer/business geeks!)

I am stunned at how offended folks can be.

I was concerned about the (assumed) typo, because I know how a typo alone can offend and look unprofessional. Not just the immediate interpretation of juvenile snickering in the case of "tit" bits, but moreover, the projection of a misspelling on a professional business publication (website).



(Of course, I realize I misspell in my online on-the-fly messages all the time, but I strive for correct spelling in other professional works. I'm in a hurry when I'm here and so my fat-fingering doesn't always synch up.)

Excuse me for stirring up such a hornet's nest! Whew!

[d&r]

k
BTW, (FWIW) I like the link idea to stimulate word education!

[George]

George:

'"titbits" actually offensive'

I was amused (in an Englishman's irritating way) at the notion that 'titbits' could be offensive. The word you wanted to avoid is 'teat' (sometime pronounced 'tit'). However, there are two good reasons for preferring 'tidbit' in Anerica: first it's probably more common there, and second there was a well-known English magazine called 'Titbits'.

Now, Michael, just how long do you want this conversation to be???

George

[Cristen Gillespie]

We didn't discuss nudes in my graphic design courses (not being history) but how anyone could avoid them in Art History is beyond me, yet some (just a few) students wanted to. They found being required to look at slides of nudes offensive. My teacher solved the problem by making it an issue<G> Throughout the semester we were required to compare and contrast the expression of the nude as it changed through history, and to discuss why we found this nude or that offensive or "good"--what did it convey to us about the artist, about our social history, etc. By the end of the course, not one person was offended by seeing a nude painting. Instead, they were interested in comparing, say, the Venus of Urbino to Olympia, and all it's sociological ramifications<G>

Our teacher never "defended" the nude in art, now that I think about it. She merely treated it as a fact of historical subjects chosen, like History painting, Mythology, Still Life, etc. It worked.

[ktinkel]

Okay, okay, I confess! It was me that wrote the initial note to sysops! (Little did I know it would stir up such a discussion!!!) Yikes!Actually, the discussion is especially interesting. But even if not, you done good! Thank you. :-)

BTW, (FWIW) I like the link idea to stimulate word education!Yeah, me too.

[ElyseC]

BTW, (FWIW) I like the link idea to stimulate word education!Yeah, me too.WordSmith.org's AWAD (A Word A Day) mailings' theme first week of February was words that aren't what they appear to be.

http://wordsmith.org/awad/archives/0205

It was fun to see the word of the day in the email subject, then see if I could guess the meaning before I clicked to read. The words that week were: diglot, feme covert, tribology, nonplus, pedology.

[Clayton]

OT a bit, but...

I've found that "pfui" is the usual pronounciation in Europe, but in the U.S. "phooey" is predominant.

I'm back in the woodwork...

[Clayton]

I think that's a great idea, but I'm afraid I would spend 'way too much time at work reading that section.

[Clayton]

I think Americans are just too hemmed up and prudish to accept any word with "tit" up front (no pun intended).

'Specially all us dirty ol' men

[ktinkel]

As a UK citizen, I stand up and say "pfui" …Your pfui is interesting. In the U.S. we generally see phooey (or, rarely, fooey), which look softer and also suggest a less percussive sound than the pf start of your version.

I suspect pfui would be unknown here were it not for Rex Stout’s very popular Nero Wolfe mystery novels. Stout has Wolfe use that interjection at least once in every book (and faugh is used fairly often).

Phooey has a date for its first print usage in the U.S. — 1929 or 1930 — and it is described as a variant of the Yiddish–German pfui (one book says it is phui, even). But I would bet that the sound itself (not to mention the idea it expresses) is as ancient as speech.

[JohnC]

Kass, does the location listed under your name have anything to do with the reaction of your students to nudity in art?

[Kass Johns]

Kass, does the location listed under your name have anything to do with the reaction of your students to nudity in art?

Gee John, whatever do you mean? [really big wink] Could you _possibly_ mean that since my city has become the ground zero for right wing religious zealots, home to more evangelical organizations than any other place of the planet, and all seem to be offended by anything NOT "Wonder Bread" and June Cleaver?!!!

[Excuse me while I do my primal scream at being surrounded by narrow minded bigots...]

Ok, I'm better now...

Yes, I have wondered that also. I think the "offensiveness" of nudes by the school itself comes from the fact they are a tech school and the whole Visual Communications thing is a WHOLE NEW area for them (less than 1 year), plus add a "suit" mentality and, I am sure, their worry about being sued by someone.

As for the students, yes, I fear the moral bigotry might be at fault. The one student who is the MOST offended said she just could not "get" why all artists have always used human nudes and body parts for art.

I have handled it like Cristen's teacher, with humor. As I have told this student, " It's that whole 'artists think the human body is a beautiful thing' deal. I guess they never met anyone who looked like me!" I explained to her that that's the way it is. I told her that I don't care for the human form in art myself, but it certainly doesn't offend me. I told her I have bigger issues to worry about.

So, when nudes came up today, before I flipped to that PPT slide, I yelled, "Mary, _hide your eyes!_ you won't want to look at this one!" We all laughed and she did too.

However, I did overhear from her fellow student (after end of course today) that "Mary" has decided that VisComm is probably *not* her thing. I do not know if the prospect of being forever at risk of seeing nudes might have scared her off. She has supposedly found a new major she wants to try out.

I would feel bad for her, but I really think she may not have actually been "getting it" all along during the course. Very nice gal, but she may be happier elsewhere.

But, yes, I am VERY well, aware of how where I Iive may affect perceptions. That's why I hang out online! It's just too damn bad, because until Focus on the Family moved here, we, like other Colorado communities, were very live & let live.

But, as Tim Gill once told me, "Kass, you can't leave there, 'we' need you to keep up the fight. If you leave, they win because they have driven away all who don't think like them."

And of course, antagonizing folks is what I do best! [grin]

I live to p*ss off the Religious Right. (And I do it well.)

[wink]

k

[George]

Gee John, whatever do you mean? [really big wink] Could you _possibly_ mean that since my city has become the ground zero for right wing religious zealots, home to more evangelical organizations than any other place of the planet, and all seem to be offended by anything NOT "Wonder Bread" and June Cleaver?!!!

[Excuse me while I do my primal scream at being surrounded by narrow minded bigots...]

Ok, I'm better now...

Yes, I have wondered that also. I think the "offensiveness" of nudes by the school itself comes from the fact they are a tech school and the whole Visual Communications thing is a WHOLE NEW area for them (less than 1 year), plus add a "suit" mentality and, I am sure, their worry about being sued by someone.

As for the students, yes, I fear the moral bigotry might be at fault. The one student who is the MOST offended said she just could not "get" why all artists have always used human nudes and body parts for art.

I have handled it like Cristen's teacher, with humor. As I have told this student, " It's that whole 'artists think the human body is a beautiful thing' deal. I guess they never met anyone who looked like me!" I explained to her that that's the way it is. I told her that I don't care for the human form in art myself, but it certainly doesn't offend me. I told her I have bigger issues to worry about.

So, when nudes came up today, before I flipped to that PPT slide, I yelled, "Mary, _hide your eyes!_ you won't want to look at this one!" We all laughed and she did too.

However, I did overhear from her fellow student (after end of course today) that "Mary" has decided that VisComm is probably *not* her thing. I do not know if the prospect of being forever at risk of seeing nudes might have scared her off. She has supposedly found a new major she wants to try out.

I would feel bad for her, but I really think she may not have actually been "getting it" all along during the course. Very nice gal, but she may be happier elsewhere.

But, yes, I am VERY well, aware of how where I Iive may affect perceptions. That's why I hang out online! It's just too damn bad, because until Focus on the Family moved here, we, like other Colorado communities, were very live & let live.

But, as Tim Gill once told me, "Kass, you can't leave there, 'we' need you to keep up the fight. If you leave, they win because they have driven away all who don't think like them."

And of course, antagonizing folks is what I do best! [grin]

I live to p*ss off the Religious Right. (And I do it well.)

[wink]

k

Did you see Colorado is in the national news once again?? The state supreme court has set aside the sentence of a man who raped and murdered a woman, because it was found out that two of the jurors discussed Bible verses during deliberations. It seems Colorado is always in the news. Professor Ward Churchill thinks the people who died in the 911 attacks are the same as Nazis. The University football program is accused of using sex to recruit players. There was the Columbine High School shooting spree; before that the killings at the main post office; before that the Chuckee Cheese restaurant killings. However, I do believe the legislature did the right thing in making a crime of setting kittens and puppies on fire as a form of entertainment. Such an act is not entertainment at all, and if a law is needed to establish that fact, then it really should be on the books.

At any rate, I wonder what will happen there next as weeks go by.

George

[Clayton]

Well, whad'ya expect, huh? ;)

I live in Grand Junction. No school shootings yet, but a couple months ago 2 kids were arrested for bring loaded guns to class (junior high) in one of the "suburbs" of GJ.

The Grand Junction School District has a high school graduation rate of around 70% and they are proud of it!

Higher-than-normal suicide rate here on the Western Slope.

The place has more trailer parks and churches then I've ever seen anywhere.

Price-gouging abounds. Substandard wages rule. The highest paying employers are the City and the County. Go figger.

About the set-aside sentence: Not familiar with the case, and I can't figure out what bible verses have to do with juries. I do know that when I was sworn in as a witness in a wife-murder trial last year, there wasn't a bible in sight.

A few months ago somebody was taking nighttime potshots at the cars passing by on I-70. Never caught him.

Graduates of Mesa State College don't even know which end of the sentence gets the period.

No idea what's going to happen in the next 3 weeks.