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natou67
05-16-2007, 04:57 PM
Hi all,:)

I'm new to this forum, but I have the feeling that I will be learning a lot from you all.

I am currently reading about Computer Aided Publishing and also about DTP, but now I am all confused. :(

Could someone tell me what is the difference between DTP and CAP?:confused::confused::confused:

Thanks

Natou67

Andrew B.
05-16-2007, 05:29 PM
"Computer Aided Publishing" is a term that is new to me. But I just took a look at some CAP course descriptions I found online, and it looks like CAP and DTP are the same thing.

Michael Rowley
05-17-2007, 07:32 AM
Andrew:

CAP and DTP are the same thing

CAP would be a far better description, but is unlikely to be supported by Apple!

Andrew B.
05-17-2007, 10:03 AM
I imagine "desktop" was supposed to convey that we were using a desktop computer instead of a high priced workstation or a dedicated device. And also the idea that one could do all of this from home on ones desk. But now personal computers are so much a part of business, I think Computer Aided Publishing is a better term.

OTOH, I still have a little trouble with the "publishing" part. It's not as if doing electronic design, paste up, and prepress makes one a publisher.

ktinkel
05-17-2007, 12:16 PM
CAP would be a far better description, but is unlikely to be supported by Apple!Why on earth would Apple care?

The term was coined by Paul Brainerd, founder of Aldus Corporation.

ktinkel
05-17-2007, 12:19 PM
I imagine "desktop" was supposed to convey that we were using a desktop computer instead of a high priced workstation or a dedicated device. And also the idea that one could do all of this from home on ones desk. But now personal computers are so much a part of business, I think Computer Aided Publishing is a better term.

OTOH, I still have a little trouble with the "publishing" part. It's not as if doing electronic design, paste up, and prepress makes one a publisher.The desktop part was to distinguish the work from commercial typesetting and layout workstations, which cost tens of thousands (even hundreds of thousands) of dollars.

As you point out, publishing is a complete misnomer. Most of us never publish anything — we produce materials for publication (nowadays, both in print and for the web).

So I suppose you could call it computer-aided production — but that could also refer to video, engineering, and who knows what other sort of production.

The DTP term is irrational and wrong-headed. But I do believe it is here to stay.

Michael Rowley
05-17-2007, 01:40 PM
KT:

The term was coined by Paul Brainerd, founder of Aldus Corporation The term was coined by Paul Brainerd, founder of Aldus Corporation

Wasn't it Aldus Corporation that did a DTP program for Apple Computers? And wasn't it Apple that made a name for itself in the DTP world? Apple has never made a name for itself or was even interested in producing mainframe computers or even the equipment that professional typesetters used to use (and some still do).

No malice was intended.

natou67
05-18-2007, 08:10 AM
Hey guys!

Hum... it seems that opinions differ, which keeps me in total confusion.

No battle over whatever companies, just terminology clarifcation, alright?:)

Let me try to sort all this (wish me luck)::o

DTP is like CAP but on a smaller scale. Right?:rolleyes:

But, still what is the difference? Could it be that in Europe we say CAP and in North America we use DTP?:confused:

Bo Aakerstrom
05-18-2007, 09:17 AM
Could it be that in Europe we say CAP and in North America we use DTP?:confused:

Nope. It's DTP on this side of the pond as well.

I have a feeling that DTP seemed to distigush working on a computer
from what went before at the time.

CAP is probably the result of someone attempting to clarify things (and thereby confusing the rest of us).

I agree with the view that having a DTP application on your computer doesn't make you a publisher - no more than having Protools makes you a sound engineer or producer...

Andrew B.
05-18-2007, 09:19 AM
No battle over whatever companies, just terminology clarification, alright?:)I've searched the Internet looking for clarification but found none. I did see some CAP courses referring to DTP as if it is a subset of CAP. And it would make sense, considering that the word "computer" covers desktops and other computers. But I've yet to see anything that actually defines this.

So I guess the simple answer is I don't know, and I wish I could give a clearer answer.

Michael Rowley
05-18-2007, 09:51 AM
Andrew:

I've searched the Internet looking for clarification but found none

Obviously, you didn't look hard enough! Looking, about half an hour after you (I read your last message via Google!) I found several university courses on 'computer- aided publishing', including one at then University of Exeter, which gave the program of the first semester as this:

Book design, including book size, margin layout, preliminary material and chapter layout

History of printing and typesetting

Learning the typesetting program InDesign or PageMaker

Introduction to typography

Introduction to using illustrations

A little of the avant garde - book design in new directions

natou67
05-18-2007, 10:06 AM
Andrew, could you give me the link where in the CAP course they refer to DTP?

Thanks

Squagnut
05-18-2007, 02:28 PM
Andrew:



Obviously, you didn't look hard enough! Looking, about half an hour after you (I read your last message via Google!) I found several university courses on 'computer- aided publishing', including one at then University of Exeter, which gave the program of the first semester as this:

Book design, including book size, margin layout, preliminary material and chapter layout

History of printing and typesetting

Learning the typesetting program InDesign or PageMaker

Introduction to typography

Introduction to using illustrations

A little of the avant garde - book design in new directionsIn this light, Michael, perhaps CAP is an academic term and DTP is an industry term, both effectively meaning the same thing?

Michael Rowley
05-18-2007, 02:43 PM
perhaps CAP is an academic term and DTP is an industry term

Yes, i think so. There were a few references in Google to CAP courses in various countries, but the Exeter one gave the most information. I think almost everyone realizes that DTP isn't confined necessarily to desktops, and rarely has anything to do with publishing, but the name has stuck. I don't think anyone here would quarrel with the syllabus of Exeter University's 'CAP' course, although we haven't generally ever heard of CAP.

don Arnoldy
05-18-2007, 02:44 PM
but now I am all confused.Yeh, as you can see, so are many of us--the problem is that those a terms made up by marketing folks to sell stuff, not really terms used by people who work in the industry.

In the 1980s, the Macintosh with its WYSIWYG interface; the Postscript-based Apple Laserwirter and the Linotronic L100; and Aldus Pagemaker allowed page layout to be done using [what at the time were called] microcomputers—what we now call PCs. The term "Desktop Publishing" was coined by the president of Aldus (as KT said) to describe this process.

As people in the traditional publishing industries adopted these DTP tools, so they spread into the grasp of word processors and secretaries. Soon almost anybody with a computer and more than 3 fonts installed was calling themselves a "desktop publisher." Professionals wished to differentiate themselves from these novices-with-a-computer. "Desktop Publishing" became a pejorativen term in the professional community. I remember several discussions at that time about changing the name of the forum. People started using the term "electronic publishing" or "electronic prepress" to describe what professionals did.

Then multimedia publishing (or as it was called initially, "CD-ROM Publishing) hit the scene, followed very quickly by web publishing, and muddied the waters even more.

I have also seen the terms "Digital publishing" used, and "Computer-aided Graphic Design" (CAGD)—but there are two things wrong with CAGD. First, the computer isn't a design tool, its a production tool. Second, it sounds too much like CAD--which is drafting and confuses people.

I (like others here) had not heard of "Computer Aided Publishing" before you mentioned it—which tells me that its not in common use. Its just a name that somebody has made up to describe how publishing is done today.

Andrew B.
05-20-2007, 06:15 AM
That course description looks just like some DTP courses, except less comprehensive. But it is also less comprehensive than CAT classes I've read online. So I don't think this clarifies whether there is a real difference between the terms.

Andrew B.
05-20-2007, 06:18 AM
Andrew, could you give me the link where in the CAP course they refer to DTP?

http://www.ljgroup.com/products/product.asp?id=94

roaryg
05-20-2007, 06:30 AM
Professionals wished to differentiate themselves from these novices-with-a-computer. "Desktop Publishing" became a pejorativen term in the professional community. ...

First, the computer isn't a design tool, its a production tool.


I wish to take exception to point 1. My official title here at one of the largest printing companies in Canada is "Senior Desktop Publisher". Its even printed on my business card. It is true though that I do just about everything except publish things.

As for point 2, the computer isn't a design tool? Tell that to the excellent graphic designer sitting 2 cubicles away from me.

Michael Rowley
05-20-2007, 07:53 AM
Andrew:

But it is also less comprehensive than CAT classes I've read onlineThat statement illustrates the uselessness of most abbreviations of the kind 'CA—'. I don't suppose you were reading about courses on 'computerized axial tomograohy', which is widely (and better) known as 'CAT'. CA— anything tends to be misleading if it's not CAD (used for engineering drawings etc.) or CAT (used by medical practitioners and their patients). 'DTP' has become widely known and is used, even by the profis, and I don't expect it to be replaced by computer-aided publishing (does a CA-publisher buy you pizza for lunch?) or computer-aided printing.

don Arnoldy
05-20-2007, 09:44 AM
I wish to take exception to point 1. I am glad that at least some people have gotten over themselves. "Desktop Publishing" is too signifigant a term to be relegated to an insult denoting amateurism. I can, however, remember the discussions and articles to which I refer. I could go though my archives and find them, if I wasn't bone idle.

Tell that to the excellent graphic designer sitting 2 cubicles away from me.To talk of "computer-aided design" is about as meaningful as talking about "pencil-aided design," or "marker-aided design"—it gives too much credit to the tool. As a highly-efficient production tool, it allows a designer to refine their designs more easily—by trying more permutations than might otherwise be practical. Its use does little to aid—and in my experience impedes—the initial conceptualization.

ktinkel
05-20-2007, 10:14 AM
I am currently reading about Computer Aided Publishing and also about DTP, but now I am all confused. :(

Could someone tell me what is the difference between DTP and CAP?:confused::confused::confused:They are both inadequate terms referring to a class of computer software. Like others here, I was not familiar with CAP, but it seems to be equivalent to DTP.

Whichever you choose, the label refers to software products, not necessarily to jobs. Graphic designers, typesetters, print production workers, output people, and printers all use DTP software. Most continue to have other, older job titles.

So far as I know, at this point virtually every aspect of publishing work, from design and production to true publishing, is aided by computers. I predict that references to the computer will fade away over time as they will be irrelevant. Everything will be computerized, so we can take it for granted.

Or at least I hope that is what happens. ;)

iamback
05-20-2007, 10:23 AM
That statement illustrates the uselessness of most abbreviations of the kind 'CA—'. I don't suppose you were reading about courses on 'computerized axial tomograohy', which is widely (and better) known as 'CAT'. CA— anything tends to be misleading if it's not CAD (used for engineering drawings etc.) or CAT (used by medical practitioners and their patients).Not to forget CAM (Computer-Aided Manufacturing), often combined with CAD in CAD/CAM: The engineering drawings made with a CAD program can be used to drive robots in manufacturing. And then there is of course Computer-Aided Engineering (CAE) in the same group of applications. These terms are still in common use in their respective fields.

I don't agree that CA- "tends to be misleading" - it simply means "Computer-aided" in some of the most-used abbreviations, and there's nothing misleading about its use. I assume "CAP" was originally fashioned on this same model, assuming a familiarity (then) with "CAD/CAM" that possibly no longer exists. But when a meaning of an expression (or abbreviation) is no longer as well-known (or as widely-known) as it used to be that does not imply the expression itself is "misleading".

Try a google for "computer-aided" (http://www.google.com/search?q=computer-aided) and see how common the term is and used in abbreviations where its use is hardly misleading, but simply an accurate description.

iamback
05-20-2007, 10:30 AM
To talk of "computer-aided design" is about as meaningful as talking about "pencil-aided design," or "marker-aided design"—it gives too much credit to the tool.Far from it! Pencils don't make calculations, markers cannot rotate a drawing for you or construct a 3d view. When applications for Computer-aided design (like AutoCAD) arrived, they represented a revolution in all fields of engineering that could make use of such programs since they enabled a lot of methods and techniques that until then were either very hard, or extremely time-consuming, to the point of not being feasible at all, or simply had never been possible (like the connection to CAM: computer-aided manufacturing where the output of the CAD program forms input for manufacturing robots and whole manufacturing systems).

natou67
05-21-2007, 05:20 PM
Ah well... gentlemen. Let's not getting into a feud. Whether opinions, that's one thing, but all I was asking is the difference between the two terms.

Now, I rather not know. And, I thought I was asking a simple question.

natou67
05-21-2007, 05:21 PM
I meant: "Whether opnions differ..."

natou67
05-21-2007, 05:22 PM
Ah! O.P.I.N.I.O.N.S.
Ok, it's bedtime for me.

ktinkel
05-21-2007, 05:40 PM
… but all I was asking is the difference between the two terms.

Now, I rather not know. And, I thought I was asking a simple question.Really? But this is a complex subject.

Those of us who were graphic designers, typographers, illustrators, production artists, printing camera people, et al, have been confused about this for years.

Please do not fade away — explain what it is you need to know! :)

JVegVT
05-22-2007, 08:20 PM
"Desktop Publishing" became a pejorativen term in the professional community. I remember several discussions at that time about changing the name of the forum. People started using the term "electronic publishing" or "electronic prepress" to describe what professionals did.

The forum name did change to Publishing Production for a while, did it not? That didn't help a bit.
--Judy M.