Whetten?

[Dave Saunders]

All these years, I thought the expression was:

Whetten your appetite.

Left to my own devices, that's what I say and write.

But this morning, when Mail kept telling me that whetten was misspelled, I tried looking it up, and what do you know, it doesn't exist.

Apparently, it is adequate to simply speak/write:

Whet your appetite.

I guess I was backforming "whetten" in the way one says "whiten", but the root is a verb in the first case and a noun in the other, so that probably explains the difference.

Ah well, too late now. I've sent the e-mail.

Dave

[Michael Rowley]

Dave:

what do you know, it doesn't exist

It might be a dialect form: the original form was 'whetten' (though not spelled like that). Try looking it up (under 'whet') in the OED.

[Dave Saunders]

Thank you Michael. Now I feel better. Although quite what it means to "whetten your horse" has my mind boggling a little.

I bet Shakespeare used "whetten an appetite" somewhere.

Dave

[ElyseC]

Thank you Michael. Now I feel better. Although quite what it means to "whetten your horse" has my mind boggling a little.You're right, I can't see how to sharpen a horse either. There must be a story, history behind it that we don't see.

[Michael Rowley]

Dave:

Although quite what it means to "whetten your horse" has my mind boggling a little

Riders do some times sharpen the attention of their mounts with their stick (particularly when the mounts are school horses, getting a little tired of wandering around in circles).

[Bo Aakerstrom]

I can't see how to sharpen a horse either.
I wonder which end should be sharp?

I'm sorry, but I got a mental picture of a giant pencil sharpner!

[ElyseC]

I wonder which end should be sharp?

I'm sorry, but I got a mental picture of a giant pencil sharpner!Good question! I guess you have to decide which end will feed into the sharpener the easiest.http://desktoppublishingforum.com/bb/images/smilies/wink.gif

[annc]

All these years, I thought the expression was:

Whetten your appetite.Goodness, I've never heard that one before! Always whet your appetite down here.

[donmcc]

Well, whet means (I think) to make sharp.

So would whetten your appetite be the equivalent of "ensharpen your appetite" to use a Homerism.

[iamback]

Well, whet means (I think) to make sharp.Google define comes up with this (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=whet).

BTW, a whetstone in Dutch is a wetsteen - I have (a small) one for my original Swiss army knife. :) Larger ones are good for chisels and such.

[Michael Rowley]

Marjolein:

Google define comes up with . . .

The OED comes up with more than a dozen meanings for the substantive and the verb (though I didn't actually count them). There are equivalents of 'whet' in Low German and Dutch. I didn't find the exact forerunner of 'whetten', but the first OE word recorded is 'hwetan', so Dave was not far out with his spelling, which might well still be a dialect word: there are queerer English words than that in England and America.

A meaning of the noun 'whet' was 'bet' (now obsolete), but 'wetten' is still the modern German for 'to bet'. Is there a Dutch equivalent?

[Hugh Wyn Griffith]

There's the use of "gotten" still in the USA -- I find I say it automatically if I'm speaking. And ISTR I've raised before, perhaps not here, the useage I see in printed literature of "lighted" instead of "lit":

eg "he lighted a cigarette"

[ktinkel]

And ISTR I've raised before, perhaps not here, the useage I see in printed literature of "lighted" instead of "lit":

eg "he lighted a cigarette"It sounds very strange to me, and I do not think it is standard or even common as colloquialism.

But of course few of us light cigarettes anymore — even in the present tense.


::

[Hugh Wyn Griffith]

It sounds very strange to me, and I do not think it is standard or even common as colloquialism.

But of course few of us light cigarettes anymore — even in the present tense.


I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "lighted a cigarette" (or oil lamp if you prefer) but I keep on encountering it in paperback thrillers we read on vacation. I don't suppose it is in that Chicago Style Book everyone talks about? <g>

[ktinkel]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "lighted a cigarette" (or oil lamp if you prefer) but I keep on encountering it in paperback thrillers we read on vacation. I don't suppose it is in that Chicago Style Book everyone talks about? <g>Chicago has nothing to say about that (or, so far as I can tell, much about verbs at all).

OTOH the New Fowler’s has plenty, saying that in British English “lit” is considered obligatory in places where “lighted” might be used in North American English (even though “lit” is standard): “She lighted a candle and turned off the lamp,” “the parking lot was badly lighted,” and “the explosion occurred immediately after he had lighted a cigarette.”

I would certainly say “she lit the candle” but might use “lighted” with “a candle.” I seem to perceive some subtle difference in meaning.

“Badly lit” and “had lit a cigarette” sound more normal to my ear, however.

Not to get Michael all stirred up, but my visit with Fowler’s has persuaded me he is right about “gotten.”

[Franca]

Not to get Michael all stirred up, but my visit with Fowler’s has persuaded me he is right about “gotten.”I missed something somewhere - what about "gotten"?

[Michael Rowley]

KT:

my visit with Fowler’s has persuaded me he is right about “gotten.”

Can't say I remember ever having said anything about 'gotten', which I and every Englishman regards (and accepts) as a typical Americanism. The survival in England of 'ill-gotten gains' is, on the other hand, obvious to everyone that hasn't tin ears: try to say, 'ill-got gains'.

'Lighted' doesn't worry me either (from an American), but 'fit' as a past drives me mad!

[ktinkel]

The survival in England of 'ill-gotten gains' is, on the other hand, obvious to everyone that hasn't tin ears: try to say, 'ill-got gains'.

'Lighted' doesn't worry me either (from an American), but 'fit' as a past drives me mad!If I used the past tense of “fit” the way the English do, as install (“he fitted the new lock to the door,” an example from the New Fowler’s), I might say “fitted” too. I do say it occasionally, but must confess to using “fit” more often.

I think it is a matter of euphony: depending on context, “fitted” sounds as if the speaker is stuttering. So most of us in the U.S. do use “fit” for both present and past tenses.

But what about “knit”?

While most of us (I think) use “knitted” when talking about making something with knitting needles (“she knitted his sweater,” for example), I rarely hear it in figurative expressions. Fowler’s actually says “knitted” and “knit” are heard equally often in phrases like this: “she knit(ted her brow.” I can only imagine “fit” there. And I would refer to “knit pullovers” — the book prefers “knitted.”

Never thought about any of these as posing difficulties, actually. What about the past tenses of “swim” or “swing” (or “fling,” for that matter)? Those are really nuisances, especially as all the choices are sort of ugly sounding.


::

[ktinkel]

I missed something somewhere - what about "gotten"?I was sure that at some time here, Michael said something about Americans using “gotten” and that the English never do.

But he says not. (I tried to search on that word, but vB considered it too small to consider!) So I just confused the issue! (It was interesting to read about, anyway.)


::

[Hugh Wyn Griffith]

I was sure that at some time here, Michael said something about Americans using “gotten” and that the English never do.

But he says not. (I tried to search on that word, but vB considered it too small to consider!) So I just confused the issue! (It was interesting to read about, anyway.)

::

I'm deeply hurt -- it was me! In the message you just answered .....

[Michael Rowley]

KT:

But what about “knit”?

We really talking about editing here. At one time, a book by an American author would be edited to remove intrusive Americanisms if it was published over here; but the publishers very seldom bother nowadays. 'Knit', though, isn't bothersome to me, because it doesn't often occur in the sort of books I read, whereas 'fit' does (I read 'crimis').

As a translator, I won't even try to translate into 'American', because there are so many ways one can slip up, if one's education is solely English. Fortunately, it isn't very often asked for, since technical English and technical American differ very seldom. A joint American and English translation of the official French document on SI had one footnote, saying that for 'cesium', English readers should read 'caesium'.

[ktinkel]

I'm deeply hurt -- it was me! In the message you just answered .....Oh, no! Mea, mea, maxima culpa!

No slight intended, really.

So. What do you think?


::

[ktinkel]

We really talking about editing here.
. . .
As a translator, I won't even try to translate into 'American', because there are so many ways one can slip up, if one's education is solely English.And vice-versa, I must say!

Only you guys are more sensitive than we are! <g>

[Michael Rowley]

KT:

Only you guys are more sensitive than we are!

I'm not sure that 'sensitive' is the right word: we certainly curl our collective lips when, say, an American calls 'Sir Peter Smith' 'Sir Smith' or the 'Reverend John Robinson' 'Reverend Robinson'; we may be a little less judgemental over their failure to grasp the difference between 'Lady Jones' and 'Lady Elizabeth Jones'.

You may know an American novellist that writes about a supposedly English couple, both late nineteenth century Egyptologists; she gets it mostly right, but even she makes slips in her English English (but not often).

[Hugh Wyn Griffith]

Oh, no! Mea, mea, maxima culpa!::

All is forgiven ....

What do I think?::

Only that -en does seem to be a known American useage ....

[whetten]

Just thought you should know that my last name is "whetten" and this discussion has proved very enlightening. Thank you for the interesting info. :)

C.Whetten

All these years, I thought the expression was:

Whetten your appetite.

Left to my own devices, that's what I say and write.

But this morning, when Mail kept telling me that whetten was misspelled, I tried looking it up, and what do you know, it doesn't exist.

Apparently, it is adequate to simply speak/write:

Whet your appetite.

I guess I was backforming "whetten" in the way one says "whiten", but the root is a verb in the first case and a noun in the other, so that probably explains the difference.

Ah well, too late now. I've sent the e-mail.

Dave

[ktinkel]

Just thought you should know that my last name is "whetten" and this discussion has proved very enlightening. Thank you for the interesting info. :)

C.WhettenGlad you enjoyed it. It was a while ago, but we seem to have been having a pretty good time, too.