Genre

[Richard Waller]

Why do I have such difficulty with the word Genre, which sometimes seems to be pronounced jen-ra. A class, set or sort of liturature or artistic work. Should be associated with Genus which is a class of animals, which sometimes is pronounced gen-us with a hard G. It is like a spelling mistake; I stop and wonder, and lose the sense of what I was reading.

Is it just that I think both words are ugly? Or perhaps its because I do not relate to people that use the word Genre?

[iamback]

Why do have such difficulty with the word Genre, which sometimes seems to be pronounced jen-ra. A class, set or sort of liturature or artistic work. Should be associated with Genus which is a class of animals, which sometimes is pronounced gen-us with a hard G. It is like a spelling mistake; I stop and wonder, and lose the sense of what I was reading.

Is it just that I think both words are ugly? Or perhaps its because I do not relate to people that use the word Genre?Genre (http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/FR-ENG.sh?word=genre) is French, Genus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genus) is (scientific) Latin. They may seem ugly in English but both are in their natural, original spelling. Pronunciation is related to their original languages' pronunciation (or as close as we can get). (For genre, 'zhen-ruh' would be closer - I actually have no idea what anglophones make of it, in my head it sounds French.)

In French, "genre" is the common word for the biological term Genus, but also a term in grammar (gender is the closest term here, I think *)) as well as several other specialized menaings, apart from having more general meanings as "type" or "class". The word was derived from Latin genus, generis (http://atilf.atilf.fr/dendien/scripts/generic/cherche.exe?22;s=3927307785;;) in the 12th century (as 'gendre'). Genus, in its biological (and derived) sense came into use after Linneaus' classification system became offically adopted - in the 18th century.

So the words are certainly related, but only in the sense of having a common origin, but their "common" origin didn't even happen at the same time, but six centuries apart.

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*) I didn't search any further but I suspect "gender" is derived from the earlier French form of genre: "gendre".

[Michael Rowley]

Marjolein:

Genre (http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/FR-ENG.sh?word=genre) is French, Genus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genus) is (scientific) Latin

In England, genre is pronounced as in French, but is not italicized in writing; genus (& species) are pronounced as in English. I'd imagine that you pronounce genus as in the German, not as in Dutch (unlike Gea, the name of a Dutch woman, which I found impossible to get my tongue round).

[iamback]

In England, genre is pronounced as in French, but is not italicized in writing; genus (& species) are pronounced as in English. I'd imagine that you pronounce genus as in the German, not as in DutchActually, that depends on whether you went to a catholic grammar school (to throw that term back into the fray ;)) or a protestant or neutral one (or none at all). Hence, both pronunciations are accepted in Dutch.

(I went to a neutral one. :))

[donmcc]

I would pronounce it as "John-raw" which is close to the pronunciation that marjolien used.

[annc]

Genre is used all the time in public libraries to let patrons know the general subject matter of fiction. The patrons don't know what we call it, of course – they just look at the pretty pictures on the book spines. :) But librarians, suppliers and processing houses use it.

We pronounce it either zhon-ruh or jon-ruh.

[Michael Rowley]

Marjolein:

I went to a neutral one.

I interpret that as meaning you pronounce 'genus' as in the German, not as in the Italian (and church Latin). A 'neutral grammar school' would mean in Germany a 'Staatliches Gymnasium'; what is it in the Netherlands?

[ktinkel]

Or perhaps its because I do not relate to people that use the word Genre?Gee, what do you think of people who talk about oeuvre?

[Steve Rindsberg]

Gee, what do you think of people who talk about oeuvre?
If they're French and are asking how many I'd like for breakfast, I think they're just fine. Make mine over light.

[Richard Waller]

Oeuvre is not a word I would use, but it is prettier than genre. I still have to stop and have a think what they are on about.

[iamback]

I interpret that as meaning you pronounce 'genus' as in the German, not as in the Italian (and church Latin).Almost :) It basically means pronouncing it as in Dutch (not German!), except for the 'u' which sounds like English 'oo' for a short u and like German 'ü' for a long u.
A 'neutral grammar school' would mean in Germany a 'Staatliches Gymnasium'; what is it in the Netherlands?An "openbaar gymnasium". This one (http://www.praedinius.nl/). (I used "neutral" as a loose term indicating not affiliated with any religious group.)

[iamback]

If they're French and are asking how many I'd like for breakfast, I think they're just fine. Make mine over light.It's extremely unlikely any French would be asking you about oevre for breakfast but there's a chance they might be asking you whether you'd like an oef. :D

[Michael Rowley]

Marjolein:

It basically means pronouncing it as in Dutch (not German!)

You're being somewhat obscure: is the initial g sounded like a North Holland initial g, or more like the initial g that is sounded (by the locals) both sides of the southern border to the Netherlands? And is the emphasis (if any) on the first or on the second syllable?

"openbaar gymnasium"

I presume 'public' is not meant as it is in English public schools, but as in an American public school. Who was Praedinius? And the Praedinius gymnasium appears to take just girls; or are some of those pictured just boys with long hair?

[iamback]

It basically means pronouncing it as in Dutch (not German!)

You're being somewhat obscure: is the initial g sounded like a North Holland initial g, or more like the initial g that is sounded (by the locals) both sides of the southern border to the Netherlands? And is the emphasis (if any) on the first or on the second syllable?If the pronunciation is Dutch, then what it sounds like depends on where you live, of course! :) As far as I can remember emphasis tends to be on the penultimate syllable ... but it's a long time ago I learned any Latin rules.

"openbaar gymnasium"

I presume 'public' is not meant as it is in English public schools, but as in an American public school. Who was Praedinius? And the Praedinius gymnasium appears to take just girls; or are some of those pictured just boys with long hair?Public as in public services and public buildings (with a connotation of "for everyone"), but also (explicitly) non-religious in the sense of not "belonging" to any religious institution. (That's why I used the term "neutral" rather than "public".) But it's common to have 'generic' religious education (in line with the principle of teaching about the origins of our western civilization), and also have it not compulsory. The Preadinius Gymnasium website now (happens to) display a picture of girls on its home page, but if you poke around a bit, you'll see each section or maybe each page has a different picture. This page (http://www.onderzoekinformatie.nl/en/oi/nod/onderzoek/OND1244194/) should give you a hint about the origin of the name of the school. (In English, even.) Just a quickie google.

[Michael Rowley]

Marjolein:

This page should give you a hint about the origin of the name of the school

Oh yes: very informative. But the school seems not to be so religiously neutral if it's named after a Dutch protestant theologian; rather like naming something after John Knox. The 'staatlich' in the names of German gymnasia has nothing to do with the German state, by the way; each Land is regarded as a 'Staat', and the 'staatlich' is just an indication that the school is supported by public funds, like your 'openbaar'.

[Steve Rindsberg]

ooff! No sense of humor, these particular French.

[iamback]

This page should give you a hint about the origin of the name of the school

Oh yes: very informative. But the school seems not to be so religiously neutral if it's named after a Dutch protestant theologian; rather like naming something after John Knox.Don't miss the "Reformation" bit though. The school is quite neutral, just honoring an important educator in Groningen's history, as rector of the St. Maartens school. This Dutch page has a portrait (http://www.winshem.nl/2000/2preadinius/preadinius.htm).

The 'staatlich' in the names of German gymnasia has nothing to do with the German state, by the way; each Land is regarded as a 'Staat', and the 'staatlich' is just an indication that the school is supported by public funds, like your 'openbaar'.There's a subtle difference in meaning though, even though technically funding might be similar. But most non-"openbare" schools get public funding as well, at least an (often large) percentage. Our "openbaar" really has a strong sense of being "not religiously affiliated" more than "public" or "staatlich" do. It doesn't describe funding (in this linkage with schools) so much as non-religion - an important aspect in a country where a single village may have 31 (different) churches. :) Then again, "staatlich" also indicates more than funding - it also has a connotation of under control of the state (or federation).

There's a lot of different concepts here, all vaguely overlapping but not quite the same.

[Michael Rowley]

Marjolein:

But most non-"openbare" schools get public funding as well

That is the situation in England too: for instance, Catholic schools that are not private schools have to be built by the church, but are maintained by the local authority, which itself is mostly funded by the state. Elementary schools are largely run by the Church of England (the 'state' church) in rural districts, but in all except private schools, religious education is compulsory by law.