Newsreaders

[iamback]

Funny how things move backward, considering that news readers are the "ancient" way of doing things.But still the more efficient and generally more accessible way of doing things... News is alive and well!

[Steve Rindsberg]

Amen to "more efficient" et al. But I'm afraid that in many cases web forums are winning. Sometimes for good reason sometimes not. Lots of corporations cut off newsgroup access but permit users to use http. Seems idiotic to me, but I'm not a corporation ...

Oh. Wait. I *am*.

But I'm more enlightened. I (corporate president) let the employee (me) do any damn thing he (me again) likes.

[Andrew B.]

I just wish there was more development in news readers. Compared to the threaded readers developed for CompuServe, the most advanced news readers are lacking.

[Steve Rindsberg]

I just wish there was more development in news readers. Compared to the threaded readers developed for CompuServe, the most advanced news readers are lacking.
And I wish I were astute enough to make better use of the features already in some of the better ones. <g>

I've been happy with Virtual Access. I use an older version but it's since become an open source project; I think development's still going on with it. It used to do a nice job with Compuserve too, in fact. When they broke CIS so it no longer worked with OLRs, I knew for certain that we'd soon part ways.

[iamback]

I just wish there was more development in news readers. Compared to the threaded readers developed for CompuServe, the most advanced news readers are lacking.I don't find it so. I use Xnews now - which has features OzWin could not even dream of. It is one of the few newsreaders that completely implements all the "officially required" news features. It can handle binaries just fine though for that specialized task there are better ones - otherwise it just can't be beat IMO.

Before Xnews I used Gravity (http://lightning.prohosting.com/~tbates/gravity/) - also excellent and freeware now (used to be shareware) but no longer supported or developed, which is why I switched to Xnews. For Xnews see http://www.pt.lu/comnet/desc/xnews.html - official site seems to be down at the moment because of a server move.

[Andrew B.]

I've looked at Xnews three times during its development. But with you using the latest version, let me ask. Can Xnews tag threads for later reading and save threads or individual messages in a format that is readable by text viewers or other common programs.

[iamback]

I've looked at Xnews three times during its development. But with you using the latest version, let me ask. Can Xnews tag threads for later reading and save threads or individual messages in a format that is readable by text viewers or other common programs.Sure. I commonly save threads and newer messages in those threads in an "archive" (you can make an endless collection of folders) which are readable by Xnews itself, and you can save as plain text as well.

[Andrew B.]

That's one feature, then. It would also have to have made big strides in tracking threads. For example, when I pull new headers, have the headers for threads I'm already reading at the top, ready to download. New threads next. Threads I used to read next. Old threads next. Plus the ability to pull a thread, but only messages going x number of days back. And tag message so they don't expire. IOW, appear as new the next session even though they are not new. Also, navigation like jump to parent, and back. And the ability to drive everything from the keyboard would be nice. This is only about 2% of what I could do in Tapcis.

[iamback]

That's one feature, then. It would also have to have made big strides in tracking threads. For example, when I pull new headers, have the headers for threads I'm already reading at the top, ready to download. New threads next. Threads I used to read next. Old threads next. Plus the ability to pull a thread, but only messages going x number of days back. And tag message so they don't expire. IOW, appear as new the next session even though they are not new. Also, navigation like jump to parent, and back. And the ability to drive everything from the keyboard would be nice. This is only about 2% of what I could do in Tapcis.You must keep in mind that a news reader implements news - not a CIS forum. There's a different protocol and a good newsreader implements that protocol. Which menas it can do things that you couldn't with CIS - and vice versa.

The comparison stops at the fact that you have threads ... just about. From then on it's really totally different. You can't "pull" a thread that's no longer at the server you're connecting to, for instance though usually you can save threads.

If you look at a group with a newsreader, you normally fetch headers only, until you actually start to read a thread. If you don't retrieve the bodies, they might be gone next time you look. Unless you tell it to retrieve everything - which is hugely inefficient.

[Andrew B.]

You can't "pull" a thread that's no longer at the server you're connecting toThat goes for CompuServe too. But I could still pull messages that were earlier than my high message counter, assuming they had not expired. Same with news groups. And so what I was describing was the level of user control I found in Tapcis.

If you look at a group with a news reader, you normally fetch headers only, until you actually start to read a thread. If you don't retrieve the bodies, they might be gone next time you look. Unless you tell it to retrieve everything - which is hugely inefficient.This is true of servers that have very short longevity. Usually the ones that host binary groups. OTOH, there are also servers that go back several years. These are usually the ones hosted by a software companies.

[iamback]

That goes for CompuServe too. But I could still pull messages that were earlier than my high message counter, assuming they had not expired. Same with news groups. And so what I was describing was the level of user control I found in Tapcis.No, not quite the same. CIS was just one server, essentially. A newsgroup may be on any number of servers but you may have access to only one or a few - and it depends on that server's administrator how long posts are kept - sometimes only a few days.

This is true of servers that have very short longevity. Usually the ones that host binary groups. OTOH, there are also servers that go back several years. These are usually the ones hosted by a software companies.No, even news servers of software companies expire their messages though they may be kept much longer than on newsnet - but they may be available in an archive (like Google groups but there are private archives as well!), or if the group is public, you may find a public archive.

And all of that is only about how long messages are kept - it doesn't touch the difference in underlying protocol (let alone policies implemented by a server admin using the protocol's facilities). For instance, on many servers you may "cancel" a message (at least your own), but not all servers allow this. If your message has already propagated to other servers and some of those don't allow cancels, you may not notice your message still exists "out there". Another difference is that CIS forums essentially were moderated forums; for most newsgroups this is not the case though moderation is technically possible - but requires a lot of "extras" on the server side to deal with the normal propagation mechanism. A simple install of an NNTP server normally doesn't have moderation options.

[Andrew B.]

No, even news servers of software companies expire their messages though they may be kept much longer than on newsnet - but they may be available in an archive I never said they never expire. I said one can find messages that are a few years old. For example, I can pull bodies from Adobe's Photoshop forum that go back to more than three years, and not in an archive forum.

But none of this really mitigates what I was saying. Because I might want to backtrack on a thread to messages that are only 6 weeks old.

And all of that is only about how long messages are kept - it doesn't touch the difference in underlying protocol (let alone policies implemented by a server admin using the protocol's facilities). For instance, on many servers you may "cancel" a message (at least your own), but not all servers allow this.Completely true. But this is not one of the features I mentioned as missing from news readers.

Another difference is that CIS forums essentially were moderated forums; for most newsgroups this is not the case though moderation is technically possible - but requires a lot of "extras" on the server side to deal with the normal propagation mechanism. A simple install of an NNTP server normally doesn't have moderation options.Yes, I've seen this first hand on Usenet. But it does not interfere with the features I mentioned.

[Richard Hunt]

I just wish there was more development in news readers. Compared to the threaded readers developed for CompuServe, the most advanced news readers are lacking.

XanaNews http://www.wilsonc.demon.co.uk/xananews.htm

Brilliant, free program.

Richard

[ktinkel]

XanaNews

Brilliant, free program.For Windows. Are there not a lot of Win news readers? Or are they mediocre.

That is the case for the Mac. There is one that looks classy (haven’t tried it): Hogwasher (http://www.asar.com/cgi-bin/product.pl?5/hogwasher.html), which costs $50.

But I see a long list of Mac newsreaders (unknown quality) at Newsreaders.com (http://www.newsreaders.com/). (The same site lists a lot of Windows news readers as well.)

::

[Richard Hunt]

For Windows. Are there not a lot of Win news readers? Or are they mediocre.


Mostly mediocre or very quirky. I think that most Windows users reading newsgroups make use of the built-in newsreader in Netscape or Outlook Express.

Richard

[iamback]

For Windows. Are there not a lot of Win news readers? Or are they mediocre.Only a few really good ones. The rest just don't implement the full protocol which makes them mediocre or worse by definition. Outlook Express is notorious (ignoring actual threading completely for instance) and Thunderbird about as bad - possibly worse).