Creating a Storyboard for a site.

[ilox]

Hi folks, sorry that I have not been around much. I have been busy working on different elements for my college course on web design.
Here is one of my recent assignments which I am now keeping up so that it can be a test bed for new features and applications.
http://test.alrm.org.au/tsc

My current asignment is Creating a Storyboard for a site. The notes I have been given are crap (circa 1998) and the info out on the web is sparse and unhelpful.

I know that being able to storyboard a site is a useful skill and is part of the process of site building. I just don't have a clue what a current designer might do for their storyboard and how they would present it.

Here is what I have done so far. Please take a look and advise me what is right and especially what is wrong and any ideas you might have on how to make it work better.
http://test.alrm.org.au/tafe/storyboard/
PS: I have set it to open at the Assignment page so you have an idea what has been requested of us.
PPS: and if anybody can help me put a footer on the page that would be great. I cant get my CSS to do that properly - and show properly in both FF and IE.

[iamback]

http://test.alrm.org.au/tafe/storyboard/
PS: I have set it to open at the Assignment page so you have an idea what has been requested of us.Here are some thoughts:

I am greatly puzzled by needing to include "monitor pixel settings" in a story board - I assume they mean screen resolution: surely that's something you cannot design but will be entirely up to the visitor, and besides monitor resolution is irrelevant, it's browser window size that you need to take into account. So not something you can design, and definitely not for each page! Just a general statement about intended audience and expected minimum screen sizes might be in order (800x600 is still common, and expect very old machines and very new ones (PDAs!) to use even smaller screens).

Something like overall consistency also doesn't belong in a story board IMO - that would be a general design (a template, if you like), not part of the story board, but used by/referred to from each page in your story board. In fact, things like page layout, navigation, readability, accessibility, colors, and fonts all belong in a template to be designed first (taking target audience and expected smallest screen size into account). Story board pages for each page can then fill this in with specific graphics and content (don't forget headings) - and shouldn't the logo go on each page?

Also think about the "hierarchical" thrown in there. Would the site really be hierarchical? Or even need to be? Would people always land on the home page? Maybe "network" - especially for such a tiny site - is more appropriate; which would translte into an entirely flat menu structure. Your navigational diagram should indicate which page(s) give access to which other ones (I'd say every page from every other page). Only with many more pages will you need to think about how this may be subdivided into main areas and sections within those - but even with two levels you can have them all accessible from every page as long as you don't have many pages within each section.

Have a good template and navigational scheme and "ongoing maintenance" will be a doddle: creating a new page will be a matter of pouring new content into the template and creating an extra menu entry.

So where then does your template come from? Start by making a list of things that need to be on each page, and how much space you'll need for variable content. Then make some sketches (on paper) of different ways to put all that common stuff on a page and think about how it helps (or hinders) navigation to the other pages. Your template may include a "box" for variable graphics that will be different on each page but would "indentify" it as its own page - for the sake of consistency such graphical "identifiers" should appear in the same spot; an alternative would be a subtle background image, "vague" enough that it doesn't detract from legibility. In other words, graphics can be part of the template, even for (some) elements that may be different on each page (of course actual content can also contain graphics, like photographs of actual products or production process).

There would normally be some backwards-and-forwards when designing a template, but in general your template should come before the actual storyboard outlining different pages and how they "fill in" the template.

Finally, what's the difference between "feedback" and "contact us"? having two (in a menu) could be confusing; I'd make a single page with street address (possibly with link to generate route description), postal address (if different), phone/fax numbers and a feedback form to send "email" from.

So... that should give you some things to think about. :)

[ilox]

Here are some thoughts:And I really appreciate them.I am greatly puzzled by needing to include "monitor pixel settings" in a story board - I assume they mean screen resolution: Agree completely. This whole course is a PITA with outdated concepts across the board. That's why I created a Commonality page to address the stuff that will appear on each page. I build to templates and the pages within those templates should be consistent except for minor differences.
Part of the Commonality page addresses resolutions and mentions that the site scales from 640 up to 1220. Who needs "monitor pixel settings"? Something like overall consistency also doesn't belong in a story board IMO - that would be a general design (a template, if you like), not part of the story board, but used by/referred to from each page in your story board. In fact, things like page layout, navigation, readability, accessibility, colors, and fonts all belong in a template to be designed first (taking target audience and expected smallest screen size into account). Story board pages for each page can then fill this in with specific graphics and content (don't forget headings) - and shouldn't the logo go on each page?Again we are in agreement. That's why I built the template. I don't have to discuss Consistency, the site is built on a template so it is consistent. Also think about the "hierarchical" thrown in there. Would the site really be hierarchical? Or even need to be? Would people always land on the home page? Maybe "network" - especially for such a tiny site - is more appropriate; which would translate into an entirely flat menu structure. Your navigational diagram should indicate which page(s) give access to which other ones (I'd say every page from every other page). Only with many more pages will you need to think about how this may be subdivided into main areas and sections within those - but even with two levels you can have them all accessible from every page as long as you don't have many pages within each section. Yep, there is no need to consider hierarchy with this small a site, next site might well be different.Have a good template and navigational scheme and "ongoing maintenance" will be a doddle: creating a new page will be a matter of pouring new content into the template and creating an extra menu entry. Already planned for that.Your template may include a "box" for variable graphics that will be different on each page but would "identify" it as its own page - for the sake of consistency such graphical "identifiers" should appear in the same spot; an alternative would be a subtle background image, "vague" enough that it doesn't detract from legibility. In other words, graphics can be part of the template, even for (some) elements that may be different on each page (of course actual content can also contain graphics, like photographs of actual products or production process). Yep, good ideas. I like that direction. I have lots of graphics off the web so could build that aspect into the site.Finally, what's the difference between "feedback" and "contact us"? having two (in a menu) could be confusing; I'd make a single page with street address (possibly with link to generate route description), postal address (if different), phone/fax numbers and a feedback form to send "email" from. Yes, agree, they are pretty well the same concept. Should be the same page. Problem is that the silly Assignment specifies them as different pages. Might go outside the bounds on that one, too silly to make two different pages for the same basic thing.So... that should give you some things to think about. Really appreciate the time taken to help with this.

[ilox]

Hi Ian, You are heading in the right direction. Remember this is
storyboarding, you need to show layout so that people can see where
things will go (like graphics and content) instead of just writing about
it. For example, in the home page, you can move all the content down
and show me the general layout of the home page instead of me trying to
"visualise" it. That is, show me the "standard 2 column page" and the
"sidebar at the left of the page carrying Menu items and special notes
that might be included." that you refer to in your "Commonality" page.

I have attached a previous student's work on this so that you can get
some ideas. I am in no way suggesting that you do it this way. I would
like you to use what you have got and give me some "visuals" so I have
some idea of your layout. Hope this helps. Umm, can somebody give me a clue what he might be asking for. I made a template. I designed the site to show the template in use. The graphic elements are in there... the whole site demonstrates the layout doesn't it?

What should I have done this in? PowerPoint? Word?
What do you folks use when you do your storyboards?

[iamback]

What should I have done this in? PowerPoint? Word?
What do you folks use when you do your storyboards?Paper! Using pencils, erasers, colored markers.... Make quick sketches of several possible approaches for a template; sketch at the top of the page, annotations (design choices, accessibility options, using colored markers) below that. Using that paper-and-pencil approach you can much quicker go through layout design questions, what to put where, visibility of menu choices and other navigational elements, etc.

We actually used that in a tutorial session about how to design with the user in mind, and I found it a very effective approach. No computer needed or allowed...

[Kelvyn]

What should I have done this in? PowerPoint? Word?
What do you folks use when you do your storyboards?
I don't "do" storyboards - unless it is for video editing. I just prepare a flow chart using Smartdraw and demonstration templates.

I really cannot work out what he wants, but it does seem like a Powerpoint presentation would fit the bill. Unless, of course, even that is too advanced.....

[ilox]

Paper! Using pencils, erasers, colored markers.... Make quick sketches of several possible approaches for a template; sketch at the top of the page, annotations (design choices, accessibility options, using colored markers) below that. So I have been trying the wrong medium all along the way? Blast! I knew I should have come and asked in here first, especially when there is such a dearth of info on the net about this topic <sigh>
Thanks again. Looks like I have to go Back to the old Story Board ;)

[ilox]

... it does seem like a Powerpoint presentation would fit the bill. Unless, of course, even that is too advanced.....Nope, he did show me a sample of a student's work the other day when I told him I was stuck, they did it in PowerPoint. PowerPoint is a medium I love to hate. It is the reason behind so many woeful presentations that I have had to suffer through. I don't think I am an orphan here folks. Done properly PowerPoint is a powerful medium for getting the message across. 98% of them are not done properly, even those done by big Corps are often nothing less than awful.

I think I am heading for the A4 lined pad - just as I thought I should use months back when I first read this assignment.
<deep sigh>:(

[jrabold]

PowerPoint is a medium I love to hate. It is the reason behind so many woeful presentations that I have had to suffer through. I don't think I am an orphan here folks. Done properly PowerPoint is a powerful medium for getting the message across. 98% of them are not done properly, even those done by big Corps are often nothing less than awful.

See PowerPoint Is Evil (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/ppt2.html) by Edward Tufte.

[iamback]

I think I am heading for the A4 lined pad - just as I thought I should use months back when I first read this assignment.
<deep sigh>:(Now let's hope your teacher doesn't blast that idea to smithereens...

[Steve Rindsberg]

Tufte's eyes must be brown.

[ilox]

See PowerPoint Is Evil (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/ppt2.html) by Edward Tufte.Agree with his discussion completely.

[Daudio]

Ian,

they did it in PowerPoint
With the effort it would take to do the stroryboarding in PowerPoint, why not just do it in DreamWeaver (or Frontpage).

And, I thought the original specs for the assignment specified A4 paper !

[ilox]

Thanks for the response....And, I thought the original specs for the assignment specified A4 paper !It did, but I had a feeling that learning about web design might mean that I should try to complete the exercise using web design.
My error it seems. Off to the paper like I should have done weeks back <sigh>

[Steve Rindsberg]

By the same logic, HTML is evil as well Just look at the internet. Tsk. Porn, bad design, lies, damned lies, statistics ... all of it brought to you by HTML.

Grounds enough to ban it, eh?

Tufte's made quite a bit of publicity for himself, but his arguments are shabby.

PowerPoint doesn't make people stupid. Stupid people are stupid, and some of them use PowerPoint to make stupid presentations. Take away their PowerPoint and they'd just commit atrocities with something else.

[ilox]

PowerPoint doesn't make people stupid. Stupid people are stupid, and some of them use PowerPoint to make stupid presentations. Take away their PowerPoint and they'd just commit atrocities with something else.Sure, the product is fine, it is the stupid way it is often used that really grinds me up. How many times have you been to a presentation and they read all the words that are on the screen? Stoopid!
There are far too many things going on the screen that you cant read because they have used a fancy background that looks cool on the monitor, crap when projected.
You have all seen the annoying transitions and animated movements they use on the screen. Some may be a nice, on every screen it is a pain.

Lastly, why don't they learn to set up a PPS file - PowerPoint Show - and start that instead of starting Powerpoint, then finding the menu then starting Slide Show!!! ARRGH. It is too painful to watch. I once saw a presentation by a millionaire lady who was working as the lead of a major international project, and she had been presenting for years, yet had no idea how to start the slide show properly. I filled her in on the techniques to set up a PPS and she was stunned that it was so simple. Nobody had shown her. Stoopid.

[dthomsen8]

.
http://test.alrm.org.au/tafe/storyboard/
PS: I have set it to open at the Assignment page so you have an idea what has been requested of us.


Is this page your work, or the assignment from your instructor? I tried validating the CSS for this page at www.w3.org (http://www.w3.org/) and there are several errors. Pardon me if I am inadvertently complaining about your instructor, though.

Whatever you do yourself, run it through CSS and HTML validation at www.w3.org (http://www.w3.org/) and at least remove the errors, and think about the warnings. The warnings about the lack of background colors are common, and most can be eliminated by specifying "inherit" as the color.

The only "storyboarding" I have done is to provide a client with rough sketches on paper, labeling where the graphics go, and a general idea of the navigation and text locations. A four page site with the same basic design for three of the pages is hardly the same as something more ambitious, though.

[ilox]

Is this page your work, The whole site is my work. I tried validating the CSS for this page at www.w3.org (http://www.w3.org/) and there are several errors. The code is CSS 2. I cannot see a single thing wrong with it yet W3C is saying all sorts of errors. I don't believe them. Whatever you do yourself, run it through CSS and HTML validation at www.w3.org (http://www.w3.org/) and at least remove the errors, and think about the warnings. Well I have run it through them and I just cant see why it should be setting up all those warnings.The warnings about the lack of background colors are common, and most can be eliminated by specifying "inherit" as the color. .mainbody
background: #FFF8DC; If I want the content panels to have a different colour than the background of body why would I use inherit? Doesn't seem logical to me. What does W3C think it should be? Doesn't it accept shortcut CSS? The only "storyboarding" I have done is to provide a client with rough sketches on paper, labeling where the graphics go, and a general idea of the navigation and text locations. A four page site with the same basic design for three of the pages is hardly the same as something more ambitious, though.Well this is hardly what I would call ambitious but the next part of the assignment will be a huge pain. I have updated the Assignment page to show the full Assignment. But I wont worry about that stinker till I can get this part under control. BTW, these assignments are supposed to take a week to do. That is, to get a Distinction I would have to complete all of the Assignment page requirements. :(

[iamback]

By the same logic, HTML is evil as well Just look at the internet. Tsk. Porn, bad design, lies, damned lies, statistics ... all of it brought to you by HTML.

Grounds enough to ban it, eh?Not the same logic at all - not by name and not by design.

[iamback]

The whole site is my work.The code is CSS 2. I cannot see a single thing wrong with it yet W3C is saying all sorts of errors. I don't believe them.You'd better! The W3C validators are only very, very rarely wrong.

Read carefully though - there's a difference between errors and warnings. For CSS, specifically, warnings are potential problems, either already, for a different person on a different system (even if you don't see a problem), or down the line when you change something in another rule.

But for starters, there are problems in your HTML - that has to be absolutely sqeaky clean before you even attempt CSS validation. Apart from a missing character encoding specification, you seem to have problems setting up a list. Remember that an <ul> element can contain only <li> elements and nothing else.

[ilox]

Thanks again for the help.Read carefully though - there's a difference between errors and warnings. For CSS, specifically, warnings are potential problems, either already, for a different person on a different system (even if you don't see a problem), or down the line when you change something in another rule.So they don't like CSS shortcuts. Will convert to full specifications and then see if there are any problems. But for starters, there are problems in your HTML - that has to be absolutely sqeaky clean before you even attempt CSS validation. Apart from a missing character encoding specification, you seem to have problems setting up a list. Remember that an <ul> element can contain only <li> elements and nothing else.Well I added a valid DOCTYPE and I fixed up the lists, that was caused by me not putting the text before the <ul> tag. Now I have correct HTML ;)

[ilox]

OK, HTML is all coming up as valid. Now to look at the fixed up CSS.
It showed my Font shortcuts as Errors. That's silly. Warnings would be acceptable but I don't accept they are in error.
I changed them anyway just to see what else it finds.
Warnings

URI : http://test.alrm.org.au/tafe/storyboard/css/storyboard.css


Line : 21 (Level : 1) You have no color with your background-color : .header
Line : 33 (Level : 1) You have no color with your background-color : .mainbody
Line : 51 (Level : 1) You have no color with your background-color : .sidebar
Line : 67 (Level : 1) You have no color with your background-color : .sidebar2
Line : 96 (Level : 1) You have no background-color with your color : hr
Line : 96 (Level : 1) Same colors for color and background-color in two contexts .header and hr



ARRGGHH!!!

[iamback]

OK, HTML is all coming up as valid. Now to look at the fixed up CSS.
It showed my Font shortcuts as Errors. That's silly.Well, I'm no fan of shortcuts and rarely use them (single exception: for margins or paddings because I can actually remember it starts at the top and goes round clockwise; and an occasional border used for debugging). The fact is that shortcuts frequently can cause subtle errors; you cannot use the same shortcut to override a single elemental property: what is not mentioned is then "unset".
Warnings would be acceptable but I don't accept they are in error.
I changed them anyway just to see what else it finds.If you are absolutely sure that your shortcuts were syntactically correct and they were reported as an error, report a bug!


Warnings

URI : http://test.alrm.org.au/tafe/storyboard/css/storyboard.css


Line : 21 (Level : 1) You have no color with your background-color : .header
Line : 33 (Level : 1) You have no color with your background-color : .mainbody
Line : 51 (Level : 1) You have no color with your background-color : .sidebar
Line : 67 (Level : 1) You have no color with your background-color : .sidebar2
Line : 96 (Level : 1) You have no background-color with your color : hr
Line : 96 (Level : 1) Same colors for color and background-color in two contexts .header and hr
A warning from me first: you are using a background shortcut in most cases - here's one of the major causes of errors I see, so don't do that! Especially not if you are specifying only one property anyway: just spell out that specific property name. So use 'background-color: #FFF8DC;' instead of 'background: #FFF8DC;' etc.

Second, what are you doing with an hr? A "bare" hr is rarely structurally relevant. It can "separate" sections in a long page but then only comes into its own if you add a title attribute that specifies what it ends and what it starts; used that way it can be useful structurally, and an accessibility help. Used visually only it is outdated: just use a border in CSS if you need a visual separator. You could easily put a border-bottom on your sidebar lists (ul), for instance.

Just looking to see where you actually had that hr (not colored, BTW) I noted your page is now practically illegible - don't know what else you changed but nearly everything is now in italics (hard to read online) and a tiny font. The main heading is wrapping with the second line overlapping the first; the sidebar menu and nested ul in the main content are just too tiny to read, the rest is just hard to read because of the italics, and actually already a notch too small.

A simple trick to work around (some) font size problems is to set the font size to 100% on the body; IE tends to get into fot size inheritance problems if you don't do that and it never hurst to be specific.

Then you have on your .sidebar a font-size: 0.7em; - and on the li you have that again. .7em (or 70%) is already borderline small (good for a footer, not for text you normally need to read and take in quickly) but .7 * .7 ends up as .49! The same happens with the nested list in your main text: here you have a ul list nested in an li of an ol list - and again you end up with a .49 font size. If a parent element already has a proportional font size, set the font size for the child element to 100% to work around this. Elements in table cells and (nested) lists are the situations where you should really watch out for this effect.

What are you doing with the same color for foreground and background in your .header? I see all you have is a background image there - not good for accessibility, since it is mainly an image-of-text: that should be a real image with an alt attribute (containing that same text), which had better be readable if images aren't loaded! So make sure to specify a contracting color that's readable on that background color. Looks like it really should be the page's h1 as well (you can wrap that round an image), and everthing in your content one header level down. Fair warning for the CSS then, except here it actually shows up an accessibility problem.

What remains of the warning are the cases where you have a foreground color and no background color, or vice versa. These are always fair warnings that you should investigate carefully as these are also potential accessibility problems - or deliberate attempts to hide text, which could be penalized by some search engines for spamming.

So, in summary, those CSS warnings are there for a reason! Nearly always they show up potential accessibility problems and should be considered carefully.

[Kelvyn]

ARRGGHH!!!

That's how I feel at times with css. The background of a container is implicitly transparent unless specified to be otherwise. But we end up repeating ourselves with background-color: declarations.

[Steve Rindsberg]

Close enough. Tufte's game is to blame the tool for the poor work of the person who wields it, works hard at setting up bad examples to ridicule (see the graphs in the link ilox mentioned ... you'd have to go well out of your way to produce anything so hideous. And Tufte knows it. If he doesn't, he's a fool, and he's most certainly not that.)

His fundamental points are all excellent. Strip away the junk, simplify, accept that you can't reduce complex ideas to four bullet points. And perhaps he's worked out that by making fun of PowerPoint, he gets attention in the press for the very valid points he's making. If he'd chuckle and admit to that, I'd have a lot more respect for him.

[donmcc]

Interesting. I am now an instructional designer, creating online courses. The Subject Matter Expert (usually the professor) invariably provides me with the Powerpoint provided by the textbook publisher and assumes that it will make great multimedia content for the site.

I ask them to consider if they were teaching a face to face class. Would they come in and start showing a Powerpoint, clicking through it without saying a single word about the content? That is what a Powerpoint (alone) in on an online course.

Usually we can convince them to record a commentary for the thing, and build it all into a Flash presentation. If not, we junk the Powerpoint.

[iamback]

Interesting. I am now an instructional designer, creating online courses. The Subject Matter Expert (usually the professor) invariably provides me with the Powerpoint provided by the textbook publisher and assumes that it will make great multimedia content for the site.Don't they ever use notes in their PowerPoint presentation then?

I once did a lecture for a computer club about Java - and put it all together in PowerPoint (a rather early version, as an experiment, which nearly went wrong because it had a nasty bug that trashed by whole presentation the day before the lecture); but I used what PowerPoint had: putting notes in together with the slides. Then after the lecture I promised people I'd put it online - and I did, using some function in PowerPoint that created web pages out of it, including the lecture notes. The HTML was (even then) pretty horrible and had to be cleaned up - but it's definitely not like slides without a narrative.

That was a long time ago (1997) - as I said, it was an experiment and I wasn't too happy with the experience, and never did that again - but the site is still archived online: "Java: Hype of hoop?" (http://javawoman.com/archive/javalezing/index.htm)

[Michael Rowley]

Steve:

Tufte also fails to mention that the pictures that PowerPoint (and other programs) can present may have all the things wrong with them that slides could have, but needn't: too much detail, two much in sizes you can't read (especially in an only partially darkened room). People often made bad, boring slides, and people often make bad, boring pictures in PowerPoint.

[ilox]

I took out all the shortcuts in the CSS.
I broke the CSS down into seperate stylesheets so I could see if the layout I wanted was with 2 or 3 columns, the menu to the left or the right, even for a top menu running horizontally. I made the changes using @import in the base Stylesheet.

So far so good.

Then I tried to add a footer. 8 hours later and I still cant get it to show unless I drop it into the body of the content pages.

I know I have done this before, I just cant get to show this time and I simply don't have a clue why it isn't working.

Did I ever tell you that I hate computers and especialy building web sites?
ROFL

[Bo Aakerstrom]

Then I tried to add a footer. 8 hours later and I still cant get it to show unless I drop it into the body of the content pages.
If you problem is that it doesn't stay at the bottom of the content, add clear:both; to you css declarations.
Did I ever tell you that I hate computers and especialy building web sites?
No need to mention, it's quite normal (when things doesn't work out at least)!

[iamback]

Then I tried to add a footer. 8 hours later and I still cant get it to show unless I drop it into the body of the content pages.Here's a possible clue: if you use float to position columns, then adding a clear:both; after those might help to get a footer to appear below them - or rather below the enlosing div: if you have only floats in a div, that div gets no height at all. Adding clear:both after the floated sections (or height:auto to the enclosing div) can help to give the enclosing div a height of its own, so what comes after will actually appear below (the content of) that enclosing div.

But I found if you use absolute positioning for your columns this is just not going to work ... or at least I couldn't get it to work! Which is why on my renewed layout for my Travel Blog I gave up on having my (original) footer as a real footer at the bottom of the page and put it at the bottom of my sidebar instead.

As I understand it, the reason is that with floated blocks, you take those blocks outside the flow of their containing blocks, but they still "belong" to it. When you position something absolutely you completely sever the relationship between the block and its parent, so there is no way to "calculate" a height of that parent for positioning something below that. Maybe there is a solution - but I haven't found one: absolutely positioning a footer isn't going to work below two columns that each can have variable length with no way to even tell which one is going to be longer than the other.

So it all depends on what "model" you're using to create columns in the first place: I switched from one model to another (which solved a bunch of problems) but the result was I no longer could have a footer.

Did I ever tell you that I hate computers and especialy building web sites?
ROFLI love programming (so long as I don't have to work around bugs in the software I'm working with - see my recent weird MySQL problem thread!) - but I always hate IE. :D

[ilox]

Here's a possible clue: if you use float to position columns, then adding a clear:both; good suggestion.
No, I used absolute so that the stinking things would stay in their right place where I wanted them to.But I found if you use absolute positioning for your columns this is just not going to work ... or at least I couldn't get it to work! That's what I found. The thing will show up if I include the command within the other div blocks, It wont show up on its own DIV block. How wierd is that! Which is why on my renewed layout for my Travel Blog I gave up on having my (original) footer as a real footer at the bottom of the page and put it at the bottom of my sidebar instead. That looks like the way I will have to do it too. That is so wrong and yet it seems to be the only option.
Others get by with blocks that behave themselves. What am I doing wrong that messes my blocks up?

[ilox]

If you problem is that it doesn't stay at the bottom of the content, add clear:both; to your css declarations.It isn't that it wont stay where I want it to. The rotten thing will not display.
It seems that because I have committed all of the window to display the columns then the system cant find the right place to hang the footer block so it just doesn't display it. Looks like I need to build my display in one of two ways:
1. Float the blocks into position. Yeh, right. With needing to work in FF and IE. Like I need that pain level?
2. Use absolute positioning as I am now doing and hang the Footer block off the bottom of the Content block.

For now that second option is my choice until I can find another way to make this work.
Thanks for the suggestions.

[iamback]

It isn't that it wont stay where I want it to. The rotten thing will not display.I suspect it does but is hidden. Have you tried getting rid of those z-indexes? They may be obscuring what is happening.

[Steve Rindsberg]

>>Interesting. I am now an instructional designer, creating online courses. The Subject Matter Expert (usually the professor) invariably provides me with the Powerpoint provided by the textbook publisher and assumes that it will make great multimedia content for the site.

Ouch!

That's one of the problems we inherit from cheap computers and inexpensive software. Anyone can afford the tools so now everyone's expected to be their own expert. The Subject Matter expert shouldn't be expected to be the presentation creator but often gets forced into the boat. And you get to do the cleanup ... lucky you. ;-)

>>I ask them to consider if they were teaching a face to face class. Would they come in and start showing a Powerpoint, clicking through it without saying a single word about the content? That is what a Powerpoint (alone) in on an online course.

Couldnt agree more. But let's make it more general. That's what a series of words and pictures on the screen, produced using no-matter-what-tool is in an online course. It doesn't matter whether it's done in PowerPoint, QXP, or scanned crayon drawings.

My wife teaches several art courses that have an online component; the school she originally developed them for was intended to be a mostly on-line experience, but that idea got dropped fairly early on. The student population she was working with simply needed more direct interaction with a good teacher. What made it work for her was that she could have a classroom full of kids, every one working on a different lesson or even taking a different class; she was there to monitor, answer questions and suggest different directions for research, but they could all work at their own pace because so much of the material was available on line.

And again, this was art ... the whole *point* was looking at pictures, not reading, so that made it a good bit easier for her.

I like the idea of online courses as a supplement to classroom instruction but all too often it seems to be a cheap panacea ... a way for schools to pretend that one teacher can do the job of many.

[Steve Rindsberg]

Exactly. Pick any presentation tool you like and it won't be much of a challenge to find somebody using it stunningly badly. Tufte himself has been known to use visual aids like ... holding up his book and pointing to the pages. This before an audience of hundreds of people.

(Ah, that's it .... it's not PowerPoint that makes you stupid, it's BOOKS!)

[ilox]

I gave up on having my (original) footer as a real footer at the bottom of the page and put it at the bottom of my sidebar instead.I gave up messing about with it and did the same as you. The footer now appears on every page at the bottom of the main body.
Thanks for the help and suggestions.

[donmcc]

Don't they ever use notes in their PowerPoint presentation then?



Only when we force them too. Ideally we get sound annotations, but on occasions we will build notes into a presentation.

[Steve Rindsberg]

Oh, I forgot to mention this earlier ... there's a company called Articulate that has some nice tools for converting PPT to Flash and I think there's a module that walks users through adding narration to PPT as well.

http://www.articulate.com/

[donmcc]

Thanks Steve. I think this is a product we looked at. With the Flash expertise we have in house, it was not sufficiently useful for the types of presentations we produce. It would be a great tool for someplace where there is no Flash programmers.

[ilox]

Paper! Using pencils, erasers, colored markers.... Make quick sketches of several possible approaches for a templateWell I have done it in paper, then scanned the page in so that I can put it up on the site. See http://test.alrm.org.au/tafe/storyboard/sb_index.html
My goal is to be able to show the page as I intend it to be, have mouseover or something else running so that images can appear and hide, then a click will show the page mocked up and running.

Problem is, can I use Image Mapping to roll an image onto the page? I am sure I used to know how to do this but just cant recall it now.

Or, without image mapping, what if I used absolute CSS references to highlight the active areas and make the CSS do the rollovers?

Or is this just getting too hard?

[iamback]

Well I have done it in paper, then scanned the page in so that I can put it up on the site. See http://test.alrm.org.au/tafe/storyboard/sb_index.html
My goal is to be able to show the page as I intend it to be, have mouseover or something else running so that images can appear and hide, then a click will show the page mocked up and running.Why make it so complicated?

I'd just sketch out various layouts, add numbers for annotations and write down the annotations on the lower half of the page. Write also about possible advantages and disadvantages of each of the layouts. Then pick one (reasoned) and maybe work that out a little more, adding in (say) colors and a logo sketch; possibly make a sketch for each page type in the chosen layout/framework.

If you must submit online (you didn't say) then of course you can scan the pages - but that should be enough. Just make a simple menu page linking to each of the scanned images as a way of presenting the paper sketches online. But if you do it on paper, really do it on paper, and don't make the paper into an all-singing-and-dancing web site!

[dthomsen8]

Or is this just getting too hard?

Yes, I agree with Marjolein, you are making it too hard.

Your mention of mouseovers, etc., show that you are too anxious to get to the actual development of the site. Too much work, and in real life, the client will want something different once they see the design.

[ilox]

Maybe I am making it too hard.

Maybe I just don't understand any of this damn course.

Maybe I should just walk away from it because I cant afford to continue studying it and I am so far behind it would take me a full semester to catch up, even if I could find a way to pay for it, even if I could understand what it is they want me to do.

But I thank you and the others for trying to guide me through this morass, it isn't your fault that I don't get it.

[iamback]

Maybe I just don't understand any of this damn course.

Maybe I should just walk away from it (...) even if I could understand what it is they want me to do.Is it on online course or not? If so, is there anywhere that you can point us so maybe we can try to understand what it is they want you to do?

Don't just give up. And if it's not clear what they want you to do, nag your teacher! That's what teachers are for. :)

[ilox]

It is online but you have to log in to be able to get access to it. All I know is the project outline that I have provided on the storyboard site, plus I have seen one person's assignment in PowerPoint, another sent me her site (done as a complete site yet passed as acceptable) and the instructor sent me a sample assignment done in Word. Want to look at that? If you think my way is overkill, you wont be happy with their effort. I got the feeling the person was already working in the same kind of job and doing the course for the paperwork at the end. Don't just give upWell the funding that I have had that allowed me to do the course has been used up. Now they will be expecting at least AU$1200 for me to continue even though it is all online the help from the instructing staff has been zip. Chances of me paying to continue the course are non-existent.

[dthomsen8]

Well the funding that I have had that allowed me to do the course has been used up. Now they will be expecting at least AU$1200 for me to continue even though it is all online the help from the instructing staff has been zip. Chances of me paying to continue the course are non-existent.

This seems rather steep to me, even after converting to US dollars. Beyond that, it doesn't seem like the instructing staff is of much use to you, nor are the materials they provided all that good, either.

I would suggest that you continue studying on your own, perhaps with books and online tutorials, and with our advice right here, if you want to learn web design, and actually do it.

http://www.entheosweb.com/dreamweaver/default.asp is a good tutorial site.

[ktinkel]

Maybe you should list here what you want to accomplish, and we can make a class right here. No charge to anyone at all.

I learn a lot here, but in scattershot fashion. A course outline would help.

[ilox]

The AU$1200 is a cap that the Government has placed for any one year of study. The actual rate should have been around AU$1750 for the year. I gained a payment for Parents to Return to Work which covered me for the first AU$1200 of any course. That was a one of payment so now I would have to find that level of money myself.

I rather like the idea of continuing this by myself, with the help of the nice folks here, because at least I can be certain it is both relevant, and more importantly, up to date. Something that their course missed out on at least both counts. As I have said before, some of the material for this course is OLD. The articles explaining storyboards for example were from the Web Dev series, dated 1998. Ok, so perhaps some of the principles were valid, but even Blind Freddie could see that the Internet has changed a lot in those few years. For the previous Assignment they were pushing the line that there must not be more than 3 clicks to reach any content on a site. We all know how bogus a guideline like that is ;)

The first time I saw the course I thought it had a good chance of fulfilling my needs, once I saw the actual teaching materials and methods I became very disheartened by the whole exercise in futility. Although my average achievement so far has been a Distinction, I am so slow in understanding the stuff that the Assignment I am working on should have been completed by 16 September 2005, and that was supposed to have been completed in 5 days! I should in honesty add that my procrastination has also led to the considerable tardiness, I just cant be bothered to nut out this incomprehensible rubbish they want me to work on.

[ilox]

I learn a lot here, but in scattershot fashion. A course outline would help.Well the attached PDF sort of explains what they were trying to achieve. Here is the list of headings for the Sections:

Website Design

1.1. Basic HTML
1.2. Advanced HTML
2.1. Compress & Slice Images
2.2. Using FTP
3.1. Cascading Style Sheets
4.1. Javascript
5.1. Evaluate Authoring Tools
6.1. Create Site Navigation
6.2. Develop a Storyboard
7.1. Visual Design Principles
7.2. Fonts for the Web
7.3. Colour for the Web
7.4. Page Design & Layout
8.1. Design Effective Interfaces
8.2. Human-computer Interface
9.1. Use Templates Effectively
10.1. Design Effective Instruction
10.2. Build Instructional Material
11.1. Performance and Usability
11.2. Design for Accessibility
12.1. Develop Guidelines

Will see if I can find a proper outline that I can post or link to.
Update:
http://toolboxes.flexiblelearning.net.au/series4/410.htm
This site explains much more about the course materials and structure. Maybe this will help in some way?

[ktinkel]

. . . the list of headings for the Sections:

1.1. Basic HTML
1.2. Advanced HTML
2.1. Compress & Slice Images
2.2. Using FTP
3.1. Cascading Style Sheets
4.1. Javascript
5.1. Evaluate Authoring Tools
6.1. Create Site Navigation
6.2. Develop a Storyboard
7.1. Visual Design Principles
7.2. Fonts for the Web
7.3. Colour for the Web
7.4. Page Design & Layout
8.1. Design Effective Interfaces
8.2. Human-computer Interface
9.1. Use Templates Effectively
10.1. Design Effective Instruction
10.2. Build Instructional Material
11.1. Performance and Usability
11.2. Design for Accessibility
12.1. Develop Guidelines

Will see if I can find a proper outline that I can post or link to.
Update: http://toolboxes.flexiblelearning.net.au/series4/410.htm
This site explains much more about the course materials and structure. Maybe this will help in some way?How far have you got so far?

What do you think about that list — does it make sense in real-world terms?

From observing your struggles as you described them here, it seems as if they were not just trying to teach that list of functions but to teach them in a very particular way — based on old information, sometimes.


::

[iamback]

This seems rather steep to me, even after converting to US dollars. Beyond that, it doesn't seem like the instructing staff is of much use to you, nor are the materials they provided all that good, either.I agree totally. There's nothing wrong with an online course but if it isn't explicitly advertized as "self-taught" and there are indeed etachers they bloody well should teach, too. And if the course material isn't clear to a student, they should at least explain. An on-line course for AS$1200 without proper teacher support sounds excessive to me.

[iamback]

Maybe you should list here what you want to accomplish, and we can make a class right here. No charge to anyone at all.I like that idea, Kathleen!

I'd suggest once there is some sort of outline, you create a special forum section (or forum? there seems to be only one here - "Discussions" - but I'm sure vBulletin is capable of running several forums on the same site with a single interface) for it, so each topic can get its own thread (or section, even, if you make a separate "web development course" forum).

[iamback]

Well the attached PDF sort of explains what they were trying to achieve. Here is the list of headings for the Sections: (...)

Website Design

1.1. Basic HTML
1.2. Advanced HTML
(etc.)

http://toolboxes.flexiblelearning.net.au/series4/410.htm
This site explains much more about the course materials and structure. Maybe this will help in some way?I find the list of headings somewhat weird compared to the list of goals in the web page... If you are expected to develop an information architecture (good idea) - where is that in the list of headings? "Create Site Navigation" doesn't cover it - it must be based on IA. (Of course, didactically, you could start with a simple navigation structure and then you could build on it by teaching principles of IA - but I don't see it).

Other things puzzle me, too - whatever do you want image slicing for nowadays? It smacks of 90's sliced up images in a table to build primitive "image map" navigation. We don't do such things any more. And if not used in a layout (yuk!) table, sliced up images tend to break when the user changes font size in the browser.

And what is "multimedia hardware" (web page) for - and where does it figure in the course? Are we talking about video servers on the web or camera phones to make snaps?

And so on...

I'd start like this:
Basic XHTML (structure)
Basic CSS (display properties with simple selectors)
Using validation tools (online)
Basic image processing (colors, contrast, sharpening & blurring, compression)
FTP (clients, process)


Now you have the skills to actually make a simple but attractive website and put it online. Then build on that...

[dthomsen8]

Below is a quote from a page Ian provided to us. After reading this bureaucratic language, and quite a bit more on linked pages, I conclude that this course is designed to provide the knowledge needed to have the student get an "assessment" and then get a Certificate IV in Information Technology (Web Design). Presumably this Certificate is a good step towards getting a job as a web designer.

I tried to follow that first link on purchasing the Toolbox from Australian Training Products, but I did not succeed in finding this particular product at their web site. There is a telephone number which could be used to pin this down. I would think that Ian has already paid for the Toolbox.

Ian, sorry for replying to you with information for the forum members, but it seems to me that you should be able to complete this course and get the certification, with our help. It would be helpful if you could tell us whatever you know about the "assessment" that is mentioned below.


-------------------------------------------------------------




Availability

This Toolbox is completed and can be purchased (http://toolboxes.flexiblelearning.net.au/series4/410.htm#purchase) from Australian Training Products.

Description

This Toolbox is designed to guide the learner through achieving all the core units of competency of the Certificate IV in Information Technology (Website Design) from the Information Technology Training Package (ICA99).

The learner is situated in a fictitious company (Arachnoid Web Services) having commenced work as a Junior Web Designer. The learner gradually progresses through the organisation, gaining skills and pay as they do so.

There is a series of practical projects running throughout the Toolbox, facilitating situated learning. In most cases, later projects build on the outcomes of earlier projects. The projects are summarised in Appendix A of the Teacher's Guide. A combination of reading, practical tasks and collaborative activities is available, thus suiting many different learning styles.

When learners have completed all of the activities related to the major project, they will have completed all of the units of competency required in the core of the qualification, along with the underpinning skills and knowledge, and thus should be ready for assessment.

[dthomsen8]

In most cases, later projects build on the outcomes of earlier projects. The projects are summarised in Appendix A of the Teacher's Guide. A combination of reading, practical tasks and collaborative activities is available, thus suiting many different learning styles.

It would seem that anyone can download the Teacher's Guide.

[ilox]

thus far and no more...How far have you got so far? 1.1. Basic HTML
1.2. Advanced HTML
2.1. Compress & Slice Images
2.2. Using FTP
3.1. Cascading Style Sheets
4.1. Javascript
5.1. Evaluate Authoring Tools
6.1. Create Site Navigation

All completed and mostly awarded Distinction.
6.2. Develop a Storyboard
Currently working on it.
What do you think about that list — does it make sense in real-world terms? POS (Oops, maybe that's a bit rude but it is how I feel about it :( )

Here is the site from the College describing the Course (http://www.vlepub.sa.edu.au/xml/courses/Course_2006MIDNDK.aspx). From their description, and the 90's topics actually provided there seems to be quite a gulf. Methinks they are promising a current topic but using outdated methodologies to provide that learning.

Here are the lists of Modules and Units (http://www.vlepub.sa.edu.au/xml/courses/crsemod_NDK.aspx?CICID=2006MIDNDK) for the course.

From the first I have been saying to the lecturer that the course is not based on current day objectives. As you point out, Image Slicing is just so old hat, and yet I had to fight to get him to accept my contribution. You see, for that assignment I built my site to minimise white space as they listed in their specifications. They wanted the elements to be equal sizes <deep sigh>

Much of their other requirements are off base, in one case you ONLY got the Distinction level if you built the site using Frames! OUCH, that's obviously a current technique..

[dthomsen8]

Certificate IV in Information Technology (Website Design)




Incorporating: Certificate III in Information Technology (Software Applications)

By copy and paste, I have put the goal from one of the web pages here. Suppose you actually get a Certificate IV as stated, incorporationg a Certificate III. Does this qualification mean anything in getting a job? Have you talked with the placement or career office of the college about their ability to get you a job?

From the discussions right here, Ian, you can do the work, but you object to the work as being obsolete, or the wrong technique, or for other reasons. That means you are better than most students taking the course, who are probably plodding along doing what they are told. I think you could not only achieve the Certificate, you could go on to do web site design by current methods and do it well.

What you are questioning is whether the goal is worth the work and money. It seems that other forum members are questioning that, too, but since we are a long way away from Adelaide, we cannot know whether the Certificate IV is a worthwhile goal, or not.

Maybe you can just learn web site design, and go off and do it without a Certificate IV at all.

So, what about the goal? Tell us.

(P.S. I posted an earlier message along the same lines, please read it.)

[iamback]

Much of their other requirements are off base, in one case you ONLY got the Distinction level if you built the site using Frames! OUCH, that's obviously a current technique..That dates it nicely... frames became officially deprecated on 29 January 2000. ;)

[ilox]

Well Cert 4 is regarded as a minimum standard for many trades and industries. An example might be in Training. I have a Cert 4 in Training. That is the minimum level in the structure if you wanted to be able to work in the TAFE colleges as an Instructor. The starter level for a Training structure in Cert 2, Teaching Small Groups. The difference is that a Cert 4 Trainer is able to design and structure courses as well as manage other Cert 2 Trainers. The next level up is a Diploma in Training. Next step up from that is a Degree course in Adult Education.

OK, so a Cert 4 in Web Site Design should, in theory at least, give you a journeyman who had been exposed to the basics of the craft and who was able to semi-independently construct and maintain web sites. They should be able to communicate with clients and establish their requirements and translate that into the site design. They should be able to work within a team environment and be responsible for their part of the process.

To my mind the age of the material and the methodologies they teach will not give you a journeyman to that standard.

For myself, the goal was to get a background in site design so that I could tout myself amongst the workforce and build sites for an income. I never wanted to learn how to slice images, I certainly never wanted to see ugly frames again. I wanted to use my Joomla! skills to build better sites. I wanted to learn how to make sites better suit a client's needs. I wanted to learn how to build a modern web site using today's technologies.

So far this is the only Web Site Design course in Adelaide without doing a design degree. So far this course doesn't hit the mark, IMHO.

[ilox]

Just got this in the mail, perhaps it helps give a clearer picture to the kinds of costs we are talking about. Note that I am up to 4W5 now so all of the stuff before that wont be needed.

[dthomsen8]

For myself, the goal was to get a background in site design so that I could tout myself amongst the workforce and build sites for an income. I never wanted to learn how to slice images, I certainly never wanted to see ugly frames again. I wanted to use my Joomla! skills to build better sites. I wanted to learn how to make sites better suit a client's needs. I wanted to learn how to build a modern web site using today's technologies.

So far this is the only Web Site Design course in Adelaide without doing a design degree. So far this course doesn't hit the mark, IMHO.

So what you want is the knowledge of how to do web site design, and not really to achieve the Certificate IV level itself, except to the extent that it might help you obtain clients. It isn't a qualification to put on a resume (C.V.) to get a job with an employer at some lofty hourly rate.

If that is your goal, I must agree that this course misses the mark by a wide margin. Members of this forum have been encouraging you to continue, and maybe I was among them, but now that you state your goal, I tend to the idea that your time and money would be better spent on self-study. If you have all the materials for the course, you might find some of it of use, but not by paying over AU$1,000 to continue.

Do I understand your goal correctly? Do I give you a reasonable alternative?

What do other forum members think?

[ilox]

So what you want is the knowledge of how to do web site design, and not really to achieve the Certificate IV level itself, except to the extent that it might help you obtain clients. It isn't a qualification to put on a resume (C.V.) to get a job with an employer at some lofty hourly rate. That hits the spot exactly. There just isn't enough left in this course to be of any use to me and the cost, well I just cant bear any of that at the moment.
Out on the web there is a multitude of courses, tutorials, helpdul advice sites. Far more help than I ever got from the Instructoirs on this course. The major difference is that the advice will in most cases be 5 to 8 years ahead of the garbage provided as course notes.

A day is a very long time in the Internet world, a year is simply ancient.

[donmcc]

Much of their other requirements are off base, in one case you ONLY got the Distinction level if you built the site using Frames! OUCH, that's obviously a current technique..

As an educator, I am reading this thread with interest. Even though I would not build a web page using frames, and haven't seen a site that uses frames correctly in eons, I would not design a course that does not teach Frame technology. It is important that a student have an understanding of older technologies, even if to know not to use them.

I still teach web safe colors, for instance. I then tell the student that WSC are no longer necessary. But this information gives them the knowledge needed to deal with a client/employer/supervisor who feels that WSC are still essential. Frames are the same.

[dthomsen8]

As an educator, I am reading this thread with interest. Even though I would not build a web page using frames, and haven't seen a site that uses frames correctly in eons, I would not design a course that does not teach Frame technology. It is important that a student have an understanding of older technologies, even if to know not to use them.

I still teach web safe colors, for instance. I then tell the student that WSC are no longer necessary. But this information gives them the knowledge needed to deal with a client/employer/supervisor who feels that WSC are still essential. Frames are the same.

A good student may need to deal with Frames from an old web site designed by others, but it should not be taught as a good techique for today. Any course has limited time, and recent techniques, such as Cascading Style Sheets, should get attention. The course Ian started has lots of obsolete techniques, and no current techniques.

To me, it is not a good course, and just as bad, it is an expensive course for what is accomplished. The Certificate IV issued might make some employers or potential clients think that current techniques would be used by the certificate holder. Maybe, maybe not, but not from taking the course and getting the certificate.

Maybe I should be preaching to the teachers, though, or the college administrators.

[iamback]

As an educator, I am reading this thread with interest. Even though I would not build a web page using frames, and haven't seen a site that uses frames correctly in eons, I would not design a course that does not teach Frame technology. It is important that a student have an understanding of older technologies, even if to know not to use them.

I still teach web safe colors, for instance. I then tell the student that WSC are no longer necessary. But this information gives them the knowledge needed to deal with a client/employer/supervisor who feels that WSC are still essential. Frames are the same.I sort of agree with you... a web developer will need to know how to deal with old technologies (converting to new ones!) and how to deal with clients etc. that may want them (be able to expain the advantages of using current standards).

However, I would emphatically not teach these deprecated techniques at the start of a course. Simple, structural XHTML (no optional quotes, no optional end tags, all clearcut rules) and CSS first. Only once those are completely mastered, give some insight into how some things were done in the past (table layout, frames, font tags...), how to convert from such old technologies to current ones - and not to forget, why. See my previous message where I describe the first few steps in a course (basics only); advanced XHTML and CSS would follow - and only then would old, deprecated technologies be introduced; including why they were used, of course.

The course Ian is doing seems to start with old technologies - and that, in my opinion, is completely wrong. It will create yet another generation of developers that don't know how to develop with current standards. (And besides, current standards like XHTML are actually easier to learn - don't confuse the students with optional this and that.)

[ktinkel]

A day is a very long time in the Internet world, a year is simply ancient.Ain’t that the truth.

As far as learning goes, I pretty much learned XHTML and CSS from a couple of good books, good web sites (AListApart, among others), experimentation, and lots of help from people on DTP Forum and INETPUB.

No matter how you learn it, it takes rolling up one’s sleeves and wading in (to mix a couple of metaphors!), getting in difficulty and getting out.

And it should be fun — it is fun to create something that the whole world can see with just a bit of typing. And a few graphics, of course.

[ilox]

As an educator, I am reading this thread with interest. Even though I would not build a web page using frames, and haven't seen a site that uses frames correctly in eons, I would not design a course that does not teach Frame technology. I agree, but this assignment indicated that to reach a Distinction level you would need to handle frames which might have meant that it was a higher level of technology and skill. To achieve a PASS in this topic you will need to:
The first requirement is to develop an order form that clients can complete.
...snipped...

To achieve a CREDIT in this topic you will need to:
Alter the form to include a third button labelled HELP. When the user clicks this button a new window should open which provides help on how to fill out the form.
...snipped...

To achieve a DISTINCTION in this topic you will need to:
Create a HTML file which is a frameset.
...snipped...My objection was that Distinction was used as the reward for learning frames, I thought that maybe something else could have been used for that level and frames be just another alternative part of the project.
Maybe I have it all wrong and the Distinction was just for learning an archaic technique that most wont need to know?

[iamback]

To achieve a DISTINCTION in this topic you will need to:
Create a HTML file which is a frameset. My objection was that Distinction was used as the reward for learning frames, I thought that maybe something else could have been used for that level and frames be just another alternative part of the project.
Maybe I have it all wrong and the Distinction was just for learning an archaic technique that most wont need to know?To achieve distinction you'd need to know how to convert a frameset site into one using only non-deprecated techniques in XHTML (i.e., XHTML 1.0 Strict, or XHTML 1.1).

Asking one to create frameset code - in 2006 - is just plain nuts. But a "general practitioner" should definitely know how frameset code works - there's still an awful lot of sites around that do use frames, and maintenance does not always allow for rewriting to current standards. So I don't exactly agree with the "most don't need to know"... but for maintenance only - not creation. (Actually, it's hard enough to write standards-compliant frameset code... - maybe the distinction should be for not bolluxing up a site when doing maintenance?)

BTW, I have Mozilla configured to always show the borders between frames - regardless of what the code specifies - so old-fashioned framesets are inevitably revealed. Try it! You'll be sorely disappointed.

[LoisWakeman]

The course Ian is doing seems to start with old technologies - and the other problem is that is where it ends as well!

My daughter* did a "web 101" in her first year at university (i.e 3 years ago), and that was just about HTML4/no CSS too - it seems that the lecturers have their old notes and cannot be bothered to update them (even if they are aware that there is a need to do so)

* <proud mum>and she has just been awarded a BA Honours degree in History, with a 2.1 grade, the second best you can get</proud mum>

[dthomsen8]

My daughter* did a "web 101" in her first year at university (i.e 3 years ago), and that was just about HTML4/no CSS too - it seems that the lecturers have their old notes and cannot be bothered to update them (even if they are aware that there is a need to do so).

This winter I did a Dreamweaver course at the Community College of Philadelphia. We did HTML 4.01 on Dreamweaver MX 2004.

The book was one that had been used several times. At a community college, with many low income students, using the same book repeatedly is a great advantage to those who have trouble paying $55 for a textbook. The used one at $35 is not a bargain to them, but still a stretch, but the students want the course as a requirement for their associates degree in IT.

The Computer Science Department doesn't have its own funding for software, which is a problem in upgrading to Dreamweaver 8. The lecturers have to consider department funding, student ability to pay, as well as updating their lecture notes and examples.

[ktinkel]

The Computer Science Department doesn't have its own funding for software, which is a problem in upgrading to Dreamweaver 8. The lecturers have to consider department funding, student ability to pay, as well as updating their lecture notes and examples.They could supply a text editor and teach students how to create good HTML and CSS by hand. They could be introduced to W3C standards and validators, and otherwise build a foundation for what works on a basic level now and what will come in the future.

Then let them use the old Dreamweaver and compare (and troubleshoot) the results

It would stand everyone in good stead later if they used Dreamweaver on a job, and it seems to me to be better teaching. But what do I know? ;)

[dthomsen8]

They could supply a text editor and teach students how to create good HTML and CSS by hand. They could be introduced to W3C standards and validators, and otherwise build a foundation for what works on a basic level now and what will come in the future.

Then let them use the old Dreamweaver and compare (and troubleshoot) the results

It would stand everyone in good stead later if they used Dreamweaver on a job, and it seems to me to be better teaching. But what do I know? ;)

Community College of Philadelphia offers CIS130 for HTML 4.01 and CSS by hand, using notepad and a browser, and CIS230 for Dreamweaver MX 2004, with the GUI/WYSIWYG methods, which is why I took CIS230 without first taking CIS130, with the instructor's permission.

The instructor would like to switch to Dreamweaver 8 and XHTML, but the administration may not be willing to spring for the software. Of course, XHTML can be done with DW MX 2004, too.

What you suggest is close to what CCP is doing now.

[terrie]

lois: * <proud mum>and she has just been awarded a BA Honours degree in History, with a 2.1 grade, the second best you can getHow absolutely fabulous!!! Congrats!

Terrie

[ktinkel]

<proud mum>and she has just been awarded a BA Honours degree in History, with a 2.1 grade, the second best you can get</proud mum>Congrats. Sounds like a really good start on life. (I always wished I had majored in history. Good for her!)

[ilox]

I've just sent this to my Lecturer, see what responses I get.
... this assignment has been a stinker for me, mostly because I had to relearn how to start off simply instead of knocking a site up as I go. It has been a struggle from the start and there hasn't been any enjoyment in any of it.
I have had a wealth of support from fellow site builders on the Desktop Publishing Forum and they finally brought me to the point where I could see the light and at last understand just what was required.
While the examples you showed me done in Word and Powerpoint might have been accepted they just didn't seem to be what was required, I knew you wanted sketches but those mediums required an almost finished site to be displayed.
Following suggestions of those on the Forum I have created the story board on paper with just simple drawings and writing. All of those pages are now complete. I have then scanned the pages and taken those images and built them into a Storyboard site - or at least that is what I am in the process of doing.
Managed to get quite a bit done on the site but not that much to show for it - yet - at least three pages are finished and working. Others are working but are still with the old handwritten images. The new handwriting font looks great on the pages that have been upgraded.

http://test.alrm.org.au/tafe/storyboard/3cols.html
http://test.alrm.org.au/tafe/storyboard/topmenu.html
http://test.alrm.org.au/tafe/storyboard/sitemap.html

lastly, the Index and Settings pages work, though still in hand-written form
http://test.alrm.org.au/tafe/storyboard/index.html
http://test.alrm.org.au/tafe/storyboard/settings.html

The other pages will be converted over the next couple of days, mostly all that I will be doing is replacing my scrappy hand-writing with the handwriting font and then putting the image map links onto the pages.
I am hoping to have the finished project to you before the Semester cut-off date - June 30th right? You will have the hard copies as well as the links showing on the site.
I wont be even attempting to build the storyboard for the established site which is the second part of this assignment, that is way out of my capabilities at this stage of development.
I also wont be doing any more courses on this topic, at 5 years or older the course material is too far away from current practise and I just don't have the time nor the finances to keep studying old methodologies.
Thanks for all the help and patience.
--
Cheers, Ian

[dthomsen8]

I've just sent this to my Lecturer, see what responses I get.Good work, tell us the response.

[iamback]

I also wont be doing any more courses on this topic, at 5 years or older the course material is too far away from current practise and I just don't have the time nor the finances to keep studying old methodologies.Wow - sting in the tail...

I'm really curious to hear what reaction you'll get (if any - and if not, let us know as well!)

(I'll look at your pages later... too tired now from struggling yet another round of basic system installation on Christiaan. Way past bedtime, too.)

[ilox]

Thanks Marjolien, I have added a couple more pages into the mix today. Really want to finish this off so it is done and finished with.

Hey, just got a response from the Instructor, a good response I would say...:)
Hi Ian,
You have done a great job so far. If you need more time to complete this, please let me know.
When you have completed this, could you please give me your impressions of this award and what areas need to be improved so that I can pass this information on to the lecturers who are responsible for this on-line course.
Thanks.

[iamback]

Thanks Marjolien, I have added a couple more pages into the mix today. Really want to finish this off so it is done and finished with.Well done, Ian! This is really excellent.

Hey, just got a response from the Instructor, a good response I would say...:)Very good. Among other things (like your own thoughts and struggles), you might point him to this thread. ;)

[ilox]

Just updated the Index page (mostly done) and several other pages.

In case anybody is wondering, the A4 page is scanned in (with XNView) at 150. I crop it as tight as I can, then resize till it is 1000px wide. After that it is into PhotoImpact 10 where the fonts and links are added. I do the fonts with JP Hand (freeware) and the Image Maps are done in Photo Impact or else using Map This. The resulting HTML file is then opened into HomeSite 5.2 where I clean up the code and links and add the text links etc. After that it is FTP'd to the site and another page is done.
By now I am almost getting into a production line mode converting these pages over but the compromise is giving me a nice neat yet hand-built page, exactly what the doctor ordered.

[dthomsen8]

By now I am almost getting into a production line mode converting these pages over but the compromise is giving me a nice neat yet hand-built page, exactly what the doctor ordered.

Ian,

You know your stuff, don't let those lecturers give you any guff.

David

[ilox]

OK, that's it. Site is updated, all pages done - as much as they are going to be done - all links checked and so far so good, it works.

Feel free to check it out at http://test.alrm.org.au/tafe/storyboard/
if you have been looking at the site before you may need to update your cache so that you get to see the latest pages and images.

Feedback is welcome.

This has been a big learning exercise for me and I great apppreciate the help from all of you. <uploading applause track now>

[iamback]

Feedback is welcome.Applause! (http://www.ilovewavs.com/Effects/People/Applause.wav)

:D

[ktinkel]

Feedback is welcome.I love it. Your sketches are lovely. And the structure and order are evident.

You should get an A-plus and a great job!

[ilox]

Thanks Kathleen, best I can get is a Credit. To get a Distinction the full assignment required accessing a current site, evaluating it, developing a storyboard for that site.
The full assignment details are here, http://test.alrm.org.au/tafe/storyboard/assignment.html
I have neither the time nor interest in taking on such a challenge, it has taken so much out of me to just get this far.

[ilox]

Awww, shucks, thankyou. It was your responses that triggered my learning how to do this thing, all thanks are yours too.

[ilox]

Response to my final submission...
Hi Ian,
I have had a look at your Storyboard attempt and it is very well
created. The only comments I would like to make is:
(1) You should have expanded on the footer (e.g. Last updated, e-mail
info etc)
(2) You do not need to bring in the paper version (what you have
presented is more than adequate).
Overall it was well presented and your design and criteria was well
layed out. You have achieved a Credit for the Storybaord project for
4W5....and all of that is valid. The footer had niggling in the back of my mind for some time but it never came out and said anything to me like, "HEY! When am I going to get some infomation written? You did all the other elements." <sigh> Like, I didn't get around to it?
;)

[iamback]

Response to my final submission...
...and all of that is valid. The footer had niggling in the back of my mind for some time but it never came out and said anything to me like, "HEY! When am I going to get some infomation written? You did all the other elements." <sigh> Like, I didn't get around to it?
;)Talking footers!?! Who wants talking footers? You got the credit, and compliments, too - that's what matters! Congrats.

(Grumble - with dying modems, crashing hard disks, wireless cards so fast they die after one use, and a patient keyboard dying after 5.5 years, a talking footer drawing attention to itself would just drive me absolutely nuts! Footers should look after themselves. :D)

[dthomsen8]

Response to my final submission...
...and all of that is valid. The footer had niggling in the back of my mind for some time but it never came out and said anything to me like, "HEY! When am I going to get some infomation written? You did all the other elements." <sigh> Like, I didn't get around to it?
;)Is this the end of your course, or will you do yet another assignment.

[ilox]

Is this the end of your course, or will you do yet another assignment.For me this is where it stops unless he comes up with some way for me to do it without it hurting my pocket.

Next step (if I am allowed to) is to download all of the course beyond this Assignment - 10 Topics - ~13 Assignments. Take a long look at it. Talk about it in here. Put together the elements that we all agree a modern course should have.

I will start a new thread for that exercise once I get all the information together.

And Happy Independence Day to all readers Stateside!

[ktinkel]

And Happy Independence Day to all readers Stateside!Thank you!

We have just been outside, watching all the maniacs shooting off fireworks. I came in when the mosquitos drove me really crazy, but across the river we spotted a dozen residents with semi-impressive fireworks.

I asked Jack if he wanted to run to the supermarket so we could do our part, but he declined.

Of course, tomorrow is the 4th; perhaps he will change his mind! <g>

[Kelvyn]

For me this is where it stops unless he comes up with some way for me to do it without it hurting my pocket.

I think that is a good idea..... Much better that you put some of your skills to use in developing Joomla! sites, even if they can cause a lot of frustration at times. :)

I have just finished reading a Sitepoint book on CSS which is not only readable, but educational, too. I'll have to write a review. But it has made me think more about how I would design a course now as an introduction to web site creation.