Against the grain

[ktinkel]

The problem is that there are different basis sizes for printing papers. All so, which is why I said it was confusing. I use a reference to look up the dimensions, but rely on printers anyway — as there are issues of grain to worry about as well.

[PeterArnel]

Grain Direction
U have to be very careful - fast running laser have to have long grain paper

[PeterArnel]

Dimensions
these aree areal B - and I may chair a UK technical committee to try and resolve some of these issues - WE put height first - u can imagine the problems we have with jobs arriving that are landscape and we cant bind them
Peter
A4 297 x 210 Aqto mm (11 x 8.5)

[ktinkel]

WE put height first - u can imagine the problems we have with jobs arriving that are landscape and we cant bind them
Peter
A4 297 x 210 Aqto mm (11 x 8.5)And we tend to put width first (8.5 x 11 for a letter page).

Just one of those cultural things. Like the short date: for May 9 we say 5/9; you say 9/5.

The only solution I can see, at least when some sort of transmission form is involved, is to ask for HEIGHT ___ and WIDTH ___ or (MONTH ___ DAY ___).

[PeterArnel]

as far as print is concerned we have to conform - we also have a real problem with names we call sizes 1/3A4 99 x 210 the agencies call this DL which should be the envelope size 110 x 220 so its a real b muddle

[PeterArnel]

Flongs - now what were flongs and they are not fings ladies wear
Peter

[ktinkel]

Grain Direction
U have to be very careful - fast running laser have to have long grain paperNot just laser — any printing. I just had the unpleasant experience of reading a book in which the pages had been made the wrong way. The pages kept trying to curl in toward the spine.

Weird and very unpleasant, especially as the text ran too close to the spine, so I really had to work to keep the book open far enough to read.

It was from a no-name publisher, probably someone using a small printer rather than a book printer, but you would think someone along the line would have known how the pages were sitting on the form.

[PeterArnel]

Kathleen
as a printer its areal problem - regardless on how many pages to view u print the grain direction has to go accross the sheet (long grain) because if the sheet stretches - u can pack underneath the blanket to changed the print length to get fit - if its short grain - it will stretch across the cylinders and u cannot compensate- Grain direction howover is important for covers if they are perfect bound -
Peter

[Michael Rowley]

Peter:

Perhaps these are naive qustions, but in which direction do the majority of fibres lie? I've always assumed that it's in the (paper) machine direction. The second question is how does one establish the machine direction from a piece of cut paper?

[donmcc]

I'm quite sure that grain long is the direction of the paper-making web.

Not sure about your second question, but if it means how do you tell the direction of the grain, there are several ways.

Take a newspaper, or other cheap paper and tear it. One direction tears cleanly, and the other direction tears jagged. The clean tear is on the direction of the grain. This also works on better papers, but is less pronounced.

Or, wet the corner of the paper. It curls with the grain.

Or, fold the paper both ways. It will fold sharper with the same pressure in one direction. That is the direction of the grain.

[donmcc]

And we tend to put width first (8.5 x 11 for a letter page).


But if you were ordering paper from a paper supplier, you would put the direction of the grain of the paper first.

[ktinkel]

But if you were ordering paper from a paper supplier, you would put the direction of the grain of the paper first.I rarely do that — the printer gets the paper. But if I were ordering paper, I would be extremely explicit about width, height, and grain.

[Michael Rowley]

Don:

I'm quite sure that grain long is the direction of the paper-making web

If you are using the 'grain' of paper in the same way as one talks about wood, the fibres lie predominantly in the machine direction (I think). I've seen paper machines in operation, but I never thought to inquire about the preferred orientation of the fibres. I am familiar with tear strengths of paper, which is greatest across the fibres.

[donmcc]

I agree. The process involves wood (or other) pulp travelling in a liquid, and it just makes sense that the fibres would tend to run in the direction the fluid flows.

I guess no one here has ever run a Fourdrinier machine to be able to give a definitive answer.

[PeterArnel]

Isnt this agreat site - mmmmmmmmmm
Grain direction
When u buy paper it is always long grain ie on a sheet 450 x 640 the grain goes along the long edge (if you want it short grain then u have to buy it 640 x 900 and cut it in half) - so when the paper is under impression and stretches it will become say 451 x 640 - in the old days when we print one or two colours at a time u would put packing under the blanket to increase the circumfrance and deal with the stretch - with short gain it would stretch accross the cylinder and u have know place to go. These days grain direction matter on anything that goes througth a laser or perfect bound cover where the grain should go down and not across.
Peter

[PeterArnel]

Michael I cant remember which way on apaper making machine they go and dont like to guess - as far as telly well u tear a sheet both ways and see - ( bit of a black are)
Peter

[PeterArnel]

u would be the first to specify it - unless u but millions of letterheads goin g througth laser printers -
Peter

[Michael Rowley]

Don:

The process involves wood (or other) pulp travelling in a liquid

I think most of the orientation occurs during the initial dewatering of the pulp and after: the paper has a long way to travel while drying, and it's travelling at a fair lick. The tension finally must be considerable.

[Michael Rowley]

Peter:

I can't remember which way on a paper making machine they go

I've looked it up now on the web and got the answer from a paper technologist that's taken up bookbinding. The machine direction is the grain direction; wet expansion occurs across the grain. And his preferred method of determining the machine direction is to lay the paper so that it project over the edge of a table and observe the droop; then turn the paper through 90 degrees, making sure that it projects the same extent and observe the droop again. The droop is greater when the machine direction is parallel to the edge.

Orientation increases as you go from the wet end of a machine to the dry end. (The same occurs when plastics are calendered, except that the sheet is cooling, not drying.)

[Michael Rowley]

Peter:

No one seems to have answered you: flong is printers' French for flan, which isn't the thing we'll be putting strawberries in but the stuff they make stereotype matrices from. (History now?)

[donmcc]

When u buy paper it is always long grain

Over here (NA) the merchants will sell paper either grain long or grain short. (On most sizes, possibly on the largest sizes it will only come grain long.)

[ktinkel]

Flongs - now what were flongs and they are not fings ladies wearA conference at St. Bride Library in London next Friday (May 19) will address flongs and other aspects of newspaper production. One talk, by Peter Baistow, is entitled “From flong to film and beyond.”

I will post the notice in the General section; the program looks very good.

[PeterArnel]

I have been to the church but not the library -
its hard - on Monday there is a meeting in London to talk about future colour quality - the past is good but I am struggling to live in the future at the moment - which seems to be defeating me
peter

[ktinkel]

on Monday there is a meeting in London to talk about future colour quality - the past is good but I am struggling to live in the future at the moment - which seems to be defeating meNo wonder! Try the present — it has been tested! <g>

[ktinkel]

Grain direction
When u buy paper it is always long grain ie on a sheet 450 x 640 the grain goes along the long edge (if you want it short grain then u have to buy it 640 x 900 and cut it in half) . . .Sure, but that is paper from mill or distributor to the printer. As a designer, I would specify which way the grain should run (or you could infer that, in a book or other publication), and you would order your stock accordingly, so you could cut the right shape for the grain. No?

Of course, some designers might get a hair-brained scheme that made it impossible to buy efficiently, and would have to pay the piper. I remember a beautiful letterhead suite designed to run diagonally on the sheet (which had a vertical laid pattern so the orientation would be obvious). Even envelopes and business cards had to be printed that way. It won all sorts of design awards (and was stunning looking because it was so unexpected). But all I could think about was the cost. And how hard it would be to fold a multi-page letter.

[PeterArnel]

Sheet wise is something we dont use,
sheet work is when you print 8 1 4 5 on one side and 7 2 6 3 on the other
Bleed is what u say
Peter