Usage advice from 1940

[ktinkel]

This advice from Porter Perrin in 1940 may help explain how American English has diverged from British. It seems as if the English chose the opposite advice.Give preference (1) to the more modern of two spellings of which both are supported by good usage, as “mold” rather than “mould”; (2) to American rather than British forms, as “traveler” rather than “traveller”; (3) to the simplest form that is accepted by those who use the word most, as “catalog” rather than “catalogue,” and even “sulfur” rather than spelling it “sulphur.”

— Quoted in an article in The Inland Printer, July 1940

[iamback]

This advice from Porter Perrin in 1940 may help explain how American English has diverged from British. It seems as if the English chose the opposite advice.Sounds like sensible advice. :) But what are those numbers in brackets?

[ktinkel]

Sounds like sensible advice. :) But what are those numbers in brackets?In parentheses? That is the way he enumerated his points; I was quoting.

Maybe that was common way back then.

I found some other interesting snippets in that issue. May post some later.

[donmcc]

Today we would probably just use the closing paren. Which follows the rule of simplicity.

[ktinkel]

Today we would probably just use the closing paren. Which follows the rule of simplicity.Actually, that is an error. Parentheses must enclose something.

The right way to do it is use a number and period. Or don’t enumerate. Or use a list.

[Michael Rowley]

KT:

even “sulfur” rather than spelling it “sulphur.”

I didn't know that that word was ever spelled 'sulphur' in the USA. The spelling recommended by the Royal Chemical Society and IUPAC is 'sulfur', as the spelling with 'ph' was regarded years ago by the OED as bogus.

Who was Porter Perrin?

(And who started using this horrible colour?)

[ktinkel]

even “sulfur” rather than spelling it “sulphur.”

I didn't know that that word was ever spelled 'sulphur' in the USA. The spelling recommended by the Royal Chemical Society and IUPAC is 'sulfur', as the spelling with 'ph' was regarded years ago by the OED as bogus.

Who was Porter Perrin?

(And who started using this horrible colour?)Porter Perrin wrote a widely published and disseminated book on English usage. College students for generations and all over the country got the book, with or without Fowler as a companion.

Sulphur certainly was used here, though not recently. I have seen it in old books. And I used that color to mark a quote.

[iamback]

In parentheses? That is the way he enumerated his points; I was quoting.I thought that at first but rejected that thought because it jumps from 1 to 3 - is there no point 2 then?

[ktinkel]

I thought that at first but rejected that thought because it jumps from 1 to 3 - is there no point 2 then?That, my dear, is a typo. And you, with your unerring eye, caught it.

And I shall fix it. :)

[Franca]

Sulphur certainly was used here, though not recently. I have seen it in old books. And I used that color to mark a quote.I learned how to spell it as 'sulphur'. I don't remember if I learned to spell it in school or first read it in a book. But if I didn't think about it I would automatically type "sulphuric acid". But then I would probably look at it, decide it looked odd, and change it. And I like this color. ;)

[ktinkel]

And I like this color. ;)Oh, good. Nice once in a while, anyway.

[Michael Rowley]

Franca:

And I like this color

It says 'Dark red', but it looks washed out this end. Take no notice of me, because I find an inset quotation needs no other signpost; a matter of taste only. The 'dark red' would be no use for rubrics!

[Franca]

Michael,

It says 'Dark red', but it looks washed out this end. Take no notice of me, because I find an inset quotation needs no other signpost; a matter of taste only. The 'dark red' would be no use for rubrics!
'Tis true that it doesn't really start to look dark red until you make it bold. I find on my monitor that none of the colors look very dark next to the black. But my name in my sig is the same 'dark red' and it does look a wee bit darker, at least on my monitor. (Which may produce completely different colors from those that appear on yours!)

[iamback]

That, my dear, is a typo. And you, with your unerring eye, caught it.

And I shall fix it. :)Reads better now, too. :) I had to re-read that paragraphs a couple of times at first because I found it hard to see the structure in it!

[Hugh Wyn Griffith]

the spelling with 'ph' was regarded years ago by the OED as bogus.

Not today in the NSOED on CD that I have. Doesn't even give the sulfur version although if you put it in the search box it takes you to sulphur

[Michael Rowley]

Franca:

It says 'Dark red'

The colour appears to me more like magenta than red. I know, and have experienced, that colours are apt to appear washed out against a white background (a weel-known phenomon), that's why I prefer not to use them unless the type is bold (as above).

[donmcc]

You should be aware that DarkRed is not an official Internet color. You might want to use the code for the color #8B0000 to be sure you get what you want on all browsers.

[ktinkel]

You should be aware that DarkRed is not an official Internet color. You might want to use the code for the color #8B0000 to be sure you get what you want on all browsers.The color used here was chosen from the menu included with the text editor, which is where the name came from. We do not use HTML here, and there is no way for anyone to enter a color number.

Of course it is better to use that on web sites. But not here.

[iamback]

The color used here was chosen from the menu included with the text editor, which is where the name came from. We do not use HTML here, and there is no way for anyone to enter a color number.I just did, though - that's #00CC00. Just using the color BBcode. I always use the plain-text editor because that's much faster to me - and I type the codes. I'm using color codes in my sig as well, of course.

[ktinkel]

I just did, though - that's #00CC00. Just using the color BBcode. I always use the plain-text editor because that's much faster to me - and I type the codes. I'm using color codes in my sig as well, of course.Oh, shoot. You’re right. :evil:

Why, even I can use colors by number here using the formatting text editor!
Mea culpa! Mea maxima culpa.

The question is, will people appreciate it? :eek:

[iamback]

Oh, shoot. You’re right. :evil:At my best annoying self - sorry!

The question is, will people appreciate it? :eek:Well, I can "appreciate" you found how to do it. But "tone" it down a bit, will you? :p

I really very rarely use it - with my sig a major exception because I chose a color to fit in with my icon and website design. I don't think that's too offensive.

[donmcc]

I like you Marjolein. Like me, you don't take someone's word for it, you have to prove it to yourself. I got into so much trouble in school for that. Teacher's expect you to take their word for things, and when you prove them wrong (because they were just repeating something they heard/read and hadn't tested) they can get quite upset.

[iamback]

I like you Marjolein. Like me, you don't take someone's word for it, you have to prove it to yourself. I got into so much trouble in school for that. Teacher's expect you to take their word for things, and when you prove them wrong (because they were just repeating something they heard/read and hadn't tested) they can get quite upset.:) Oh, but I was taught in school to take nobody's word for it - not even the teacher's! (Which appealed to my always-curious mind, of course.) We were taught to think for ourselves, and ask questions; teachers don't know it all - and we were told so. Just a simple (primary) school but a couple of great teachers!

[ktinkel]

. . . with my sig a major exception because I chose a color to fit in with my icon and website design. I don't think that's too offensive.No. But it doesn’t go too well with our link color! <g>

[ktinkel]

:) Oh, but I was taught in school to take nobody's word for it - not even the teacher's! (Which appealed to my always-curious mind, of course.) We were taught to think for ourselves, and ask questions; teachers don't know it all - and we were told so. Just a simple (primary) school but a couple of great teachers!I was taught the same way, and in this case, already knew one could control colors that way.

But I forgot. So shame on me for not checking before opening my big yap! (Er, pushed all the keys.)

[Michael Rowley]

Hugh:

Not today in the NSOED [ New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary] on CD that I have

Not anytime in the SOED, which doesn't have the sometimes fascinating comments on various points of English spelling given in the OED, many by Murray, who was highly supportive of many points that today separate US and English spelling. Well worth reading are, for example, the arguments in favour of -or vs -our, -ize vs -ise, sulfur vs sulphur, and analyze vs analyse (and similar formations). Interesting too are accounts of US Americans that contributed words to the first OED; one of the most useful contributors was a murderer locked up in an asylum for the criminally insane.

[PeterArnel]

Kathleen
who cares how it is spelt - spelling is eliitist - it has no relivance - it is the sound that matters - mould mold same sound - ordainary people ( I was going to say dont care - but in fact they care so much that they dont write words and grammer because they dont want to be shown up -I would think so much of our history (proper people history has been lost)
Pete
campaigns against heightism and now spellingiiism :-)

[ktinkel]

who cares how it is spelt - spelling is eliitist - it has no relivance - it is the sound that matters - mould mold same sound - ordainary people ( I was going to say dont care - but in fact they care so much that they dont write words and grammer because they dont want to be shown up -I would think so much of our history (proper people history has been lost)
Pete
campaigns against heightism and now spellingiiism :-)Oh, dear — I so profoundly disagree that I can barely express it.

You assume an aural, auditory universe. But in many settings — this one, for example — people with all levels of expertise in the English language try to understand what is said.

English spelling is ludicrous, no doubt about it. We adopt words from every damn culture on the planet (and when it becomes possible, probably from Mars or wherever as well). But for those who struggle with it, or have access to a decent dictionary, we all can understand each other.

Mold and mould are really different in meaning. Do you suggest that the context will always make that difference clear? Do you call the metalsmith? or the allergist?

Cold and could are also different. They even sound different, of course — but we are not hearing each other.

There is nothing elitist about spelling; it is, in fact, how the middle class (and lower ones) have been making their way in the world. Do you think the rich and powerful have to communicate? Nah — they just lay their money or power on the table and dare us to disobey! <g>

[dthomsen8]

campaigns against heightism and now spellingiiism :-)

Heightism? The idea that Washington and Lincoln were great presidents because they were tall? Being tall may have contributed to their success, but that was hardly the only reason they succeeded.

Or do you mean we shouldn't be prejudiced against short people? I am on the other side with that one, I looked for a short wife, and I finally found one.

[dthomsen8]

There is nothing elitist about spelling; it is, in fact, how the middle class (and lower ones) have been making their way in the world. Do you think the rich and powerful have to communicate? Nah — they just lay their money or power on the table and dare us to disobey! <g>

I suppose what is elitist about spelling goes with being an educated person. There is certainly prejudice against educated people, some of whom are snobish, but most are not.

[Michael Rowley]

KT:

Mold and mould are really different in meaning.

You're puzzling us there: as far as I know, British spelling uses 'mould' for all three meanings, and US-American spelling uses 'mold' for all three; the sound is the same. Canadian spelling probably uses either. 'Cold' rhymes ('rimes' would be etymologically correcter) with 'mold'; 'could' doesn't, which may upset many. I'm partly with Peter, but the sound of words changes, even during one's lifetime occasionally; on the other hand, no one is unable to understand him, even when he disregards conventional 'orthography'. And on the same theme, I don't generally have any difficulty in understanding written communications from the mainly American forum members, though I probably would if they were speaking to me, although many of their spelling conventions differ from mine.

[PeterArnel]

I am trying to keeb debates going here - hahahaha

I will say though that I think people see wordes in two different ways - I would expect that "thier" and "there" are two totally different words and u would never mix them I see their and there and too and to as sounds and then try and put spellings to them as so have problems with them
Peter
I also type to quickly and have word blindness

[annc]

(And who started using this horrible colour?)
If you used the standard vBulletin quotes, as the rest of us do, your message would be in comfy black like this one. ;)

[Michael Rowley]

Ann:

If you used the standard vBulletin quotes, as the rest of us do

My method of quoting suits me nicely, thank you, now that I've found out what's meant by 'A'. I don't know yet how one makes the colour change from black, but I do now know how to change it back again.

[Hugh Wyn Griffith]

<< one of the most useful contributors was a murderer locked up in an asylum for the criminally insane. >>

Have you read Simon Winchester's book on this?

[Hugh Wyn Griffith]

Originally Posted by Michael Rowley
(And who started using this horrible colour?)

Oh no it wouldn't!

[Michael Rowley]

Hugh:

Have you read Simon Winchester's book on this?

No, but I may have seen it reviewed.